Collective Bargaining Agreement

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

This looks like good news:

]Negotiators meet into evening October 20, 2006 NEW YORK (AP) -- Lawyers for baseball players and owners met into Friday evening as they pushed to reach a labor deal. Player agents and management officials have said all week that the sides were closing in on an agreement. The current contract expires Dec. 19, and the negotiations have been held without public acrimony for the first time in more than three decades. Owners and players agreed to a contract in August 2002 hours before players were set to strike. It was the first time since 1970 that players and owners reached a new collective bargaining agreement without a work stoppage.

[MFS62]

One of the clauses in the new agreement will be the elimination of losing draft picks when signing a free agent.

Thoughts?

Later

[nymr83]

i can see why the players want that in there, they think a team will pay more if they dont lose a first round pick.

personally i care more about competitive balance than i do about the rich players getting a few more dollars so i don't like it.

a possible solution would be to grant the teams LOSING these players a supplemental pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds without taking a pick away from anyone.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Personally, I think the draft should be abolished.

[Guest Iubitul]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/464202p-390624c.html

]Players, owners set to reveal a new deal Baseball owners and players have reached a tentative agreement on a new labor deal that is expected to be announced during the World Series, as the Daily News first reported last Sunday. The deal, when completed, will give baseball 16 straight years of labor peace, a far cry from the old days of unrest, when a strike wiped out the end of the 1994 season, including the World Series, and wasn't settled until the eve of Opening Day 1995. Commissioner Bud Selig is expected to announce the new deal when the Series moves to St. Louis this week. The current agreement was reworked twice last year to strengthen baseball's drug-testing policy.

[nymr83]

Edgy DC wrote: Personally, I think the draft should be abolished.

so that the small market teams not only cant sign the big players, but cant draft the big prospects?

what should really happen is all the international guys should be tossed into the draft too and there should be slotted salaries like the NBA has so that everyone drafts for talent not "signability"

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

I agree with Namor. There should be more draft, not less.

[Guest Iubitul]

Nymr83 wrote: ="Edgy DC"]Personally, I think the draft should be abolished. so that the small market teams not only cant sign the big players, but cant draft the big prospects? what should really happen is all the international guys should be tossed into the draft too and there should be slotted salaries like the NBA has so that everyone drafts for talent not "signability"

Oh man - this is too good of a suggestion to actually happen...

[Guest Edgy DC]

Nymr83 wrote: ="Edgy DC"]Personally, I think the draft should be abolished. so that the small market teams not only cant sign the big players, but cant draft the big prospects? what should really happen is all the international guys should be tossed into the draft too and there should be slotted salaries like the NBA has so that everyone drafts for talent not "signability"

Which would screw a whole new world of players out of the marketing leverage that is their American right to retain.

I think the anti-trust exemption should be abolished also, so we don't have to continually re-write the code to artifically restore to disadvantaged teams some semblance of the competitive equality they've been unfairly denied.

I think it's been persuasively argued that the draft does as much to create a floor on bonuses as to create a cap.

Slotted salaries are such an un-American notion that it makes me want to cry.

[Elster88]

]Slotted salaries are such an un-American notion that it makes me want to cry.

Of course the other extreme gives you the Yankees.

[nymr83]

you cant have the yankees/mets without having someone for them to play. stop treating baseball like 30 individual businesses and start realizing that the game (and probably everyone but steinbrenner individually) is better off when they act in concert and cooperate. just look at what the NFL has accomplished.

i dont want to hear about antitrust exemptions and players "rights" i have no sympathy for the "rights" of people making upwards of $200,000 or of those receiving signing bonuses larger than the annual income of people with twice their education.

sports need to be treated more as a public trust, whats good for the GAME is what matters.

[Willets Point]

Nymr, why do you hate America?

[Guest Edgy DC]

]you cant have the yankees/mets without having someone for them to play.

I neither said nor suggested.that.

]stop treating baseball like 30 individual businesses and start realizing that the game (and probably everyone but steinbrenner individually) is better off when they act in concert and cooperate.

I think history shows otherwise. I think Steinbrenner has done very well for himself in a cooperative atmosphere.

]just look at what the NFL has accomplished.

The NFL doesn't interest me in the least.

]i dont want to hear about antitrust exemptions and players "rights" i have no sympathy for the "rights" of people making upwards of $200,000 or of those receiving signing bonuses larger than the annual income of people with twice their education.

Then don't read. Why is the hostility with amateur prospects, a small percentage of whom will one day be milllionaires, but not with the billionaires who screw them? Who have a special right to conspire to set prices that other industries aren't allowed?

Do you know that minor leaguers make less in real dollars than they did in the sixties?

]sports need to be treated more as a public trust, whats good for the GAME is what matters.

Government is not about to succeed in taking over a multi-billion dollar industry, but you're welcome to lobby governments to launch a parallel league.

You've suggested otherwise. And what is so threatening the "GAME" about amateurs having an honest right to negotiate?

[nymr83]

Willets Point wrote: Nymr, why do you hate America?

i love America, so instead of taking away baseball's antitrust exemption why don't we take away those communist antitrust laws along with the minimum wage and any other labor laws you can think of

as for baseball, if the players should be free to bargain then so should the owners, they should be free to go to Argentina or wherever and sign a guy to play for $6.50 an hour (or whatever the federal minimum wage is now.)

[Elster88]

Nymr83 wrote: ="Edgy DC"]Personally, I think the draft should be abolished. so that the small market teams not only cant sign the big players, but cant draft the big prospects? what should really happen is all the international guys should be tossed into the draft too and there should be slotted salaries like the NBA has so that everyone drafts for talent not "signability"

Nymr and I are rarely in agreement. We are here especially on the international players.

Does anyone really think it's fair that only about 5 teams have a shot at signing that Japanese pitcher who's a hot item? Edgy, I'm looking at you.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Actually, I think both Edgy and Namor make good points.

Allowing a draft pick to only negotiate with one team is unfair. But so is allowing big market teams to hoard all of the best young talent.

So, here's what I'd do if I was the absolute dictator of baseball:

I'd revise the draft so that each player can be drafted by up to three teams, and he'd be free to negotiate with the all three teams and he could strike the best deal that he can.

If a player is only drafted by one or two teams, then he'd be free to negotiate with everyone.

[nymr83]

i dont think i'm crazy about that idea. slotted salaries would solve the problem, just make them based on previous years signings.

the international guys piss me off more than anything. i'm not even talking about the guys who put in 7 years in the japanese league but the 17 year old kids in south america who get 5 million dollars while the american kids go into the draft. an international draft would benefit americans (and i dont give a rats ass about anyone else, nor should any american legislature passing laws dealing with baseball)

[Guest Edgy DC]

="Elster88"] ="Nymr83"] ="Edgy DC"]Personally, I think the draft should be abolished. so that the small market teams not only cant sign the big players, but cant draft the big prospects? what should really happen is all the international guys should be tossed into the draft too and there should be slotted salaries like the NBA has so that everyone drafts for talent not "signability" Nymr and I are rarely in agreement. We are here especially on the international players. Does anyone really think it's fair that only about 5 teams have a shot at signing that Japanese pitcher who's a hot item? Edgy, I'm looking at you.

No, but that unfairness is an issue that shouldn't be solved by creating new unfair rules.

The unfairness is a byproduct of rules that lock teams into their markets, long after market disparitties have become much more powerful than they were before. In a fair marketplace, the answer would be for franchises to flood into the large markets, giving them a fair crack at the Yankees/Mets/RedSox/Dodgers revenue streams, and lessening the advantage over teams that are remain in the smaller markets. That's the way it works in Japanese baseball, and British football.

The issue isn't that players have rights. And the answer shouldn't be to compromise or deny them through unfair uncompetitive practices that would be deemed illegal in other sectors. It should be to liberalize expansion and franchise movement restrictions. It might be messy for the first ten years, as alphabet soup franchises and vagabond franchises sprout up and move about trying to find roots, but probably not so much, and it would be a light enough penance.

The New York area could support six teams,. probably quite easily.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Nymr83 wrote: i'm not even talking about the guys who put in 7 years in the japanese league but the 17 year old kids in south america who get 5 million dollars while the american kids go into the draft.

I don't know why you care a bit, especially as this has never happened.

And your patriotism falls short when what you're proposing is a further infringement on the rights of American ballplayers.

[Frayed Knot]

Coupla things:

* MLB wants to eliminate tying draft picks to FA rules so it can 'de-link' the draft from coming under the scrutiny of the player's association. As long as picks are tied in somehow to player compensation, the PA gets a say in how the draft is conducted.

* Bonus money for most picks are already subject to some sort of "slotting" arrangements. There's nothing mandatory and exceptions are made but few picks are able to determine their draft positions.

* Those favoring the inclusion of Int'l players in the amateur draft often do so in the name of smaller-market teams, but it's those same SM-teams who are quite adamant about not wanting your "help". They see those undraftable territories as prime real estate that can be ripe for a team with a bit of entreprenurial know-how. With a draft, there'd be no incentive to go into those countries, beat the bushes for un-tapped talent, and build acadamies to teach them if there is then only a 1-in-30 chance of getting these players you uncover. Sure, there are teams who will miss out on the occasional high-ticket Int'l player, but the smaller teams are willing to pass on the supposed quality (most haven't worked anyway) in favor of getting the quantity. Many think that including Puerto Rico in the draft (late '80s) helped turn off the flow of talent from that island for similar reasons

[Guest Edgy DC]

Nymr83 wrote: and i dont give a rats ass about anyone else, nor should any american legislature passing laws dealing with baseball

You actually want Congress to institute new laws regarding the baseball draft and player salaries?

[metsmarathon]

wouldn't it be cool if teams could buy draft picks? like, if team A pays double what team B pays, then team A gets twice as many picks. and then that money gets spread equitably amongst the draftees.

wouldn't that be cool?

yeah, its been a long day, and i think my brain is starting to hallucinate.

[nymr83]

Edgy DC wrote: ="Nymr83"]and i dont give a rats ass about anyone else, nor should any american legislature passing laws dealing with baseball You actually want Congress to institute new laws regarding the baseball draft and player salaries?

no, i really meant with regards to reviewing the old ones, Congress has no reason to care what baseball does or doesn't do to the international free agents.

[Guest Edgy DC]

This discussion is full of red herrings.

[duan]

"Does anyone really think it's fair that only about 5 teams have a shot at signing that Japanese pitcher who's a hot item? Edgy, I'm looking at you."

Maybe the Japanese pitcher does.

Seriously I can't understand how people can be in favour of things like salary caps et al that only serve to increase the profit margin for the members of a non-meritocratic** bunch of people called baseball owners.

The reality is, people who play major league baseball are EXTREMELY talented being in the very top echelon of their profession they should be able to extract market rates for their talent. There's a LONG standing argument that 'the clubs develop players etc ...' but that's covered by the 6 years of NON MARKET value service that they give to the club. I'd argue that THAT in itself is way too much, but that's me.

In football, players sign contracts, if they're over 23 and the contract's over, it's over and they're free to do whatever they like. If they're 23 or under they can move to whomever they like but the club whom they are with will get a level of compensation (based on development time at club and market value), but only if that club has offered them another contract at the same or greater salary.

Similarly clubs have no right to 'trade' a player. Player's can be transferred but only with their agreement. Now, players generally feel that if a club doesn't want you, you're better to move on, but if you want to stay and fight for your place that's up to you.

I'm not saying it's perfect, indeed the problems that agents

The reality is, players are people earning a living, sure they're highly paid, but they're just like you and me in lots of ways.

** My point here is this, owners are given a guaranteed revenue stream from MLB just for being owners. As has been shown by (in it's most extreme case) Florida this year, the Pirates and most d is possible to invest very little money in the 'on-field product', receive that money and have no 'penalty for it'. In other words there's no punishment for your team performing badly and you can simply continue to cash the cheques.
This is the BIG problem with the absence of promotion/relegation.

[Guest Iubitul]

The way things are set up regarding international players, the rich only get richer.

1. International players should have to apply for the draft - this system would be the most equitable way to insure that the best players don't continually go to the wealthiest teams. Posting to try to sign a Japanese league semi-free agent will stop with this agreement. I stopped trusting this closed bid process since the Ichiro signing.

2. Each draft position should have a salary/bonus slot to be set by the previous years signings, and should go up at an agreed rate each year.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Agreed by whom?

This is shocking. The rich getting richer? They're all rich. Richer than any of us can believe. And we're supposed to support protecting them from players wanting to negotiate a fair price for their skills?

[duan]

Iubitul wrote: The way things are set up regarding international players, the rich only get richer. 1. International players should have to apply for the draft - this system would be the most equitable way to insure that the best players don't continually go to the wealthiest teams. Posting to try to sign a Japanese league semi-free agent will stop with this agreement. I stopped trusting this closed bid process since the Ichiro signing. 2. Each draft position should have a salary/bonus slot to be set by the previous years signings, and should go up at an agreed rate each year.

Ok, posting is nothing to do with Major League Baseball, but to do with how the Japanese system works. They're basically offering a tender to buy out the rights that the japanese club has to the player for the next X years. How can you decide that this isn't fair, but that forcing them to accept below market value for their services is.

At what point do people not get, that this is a system [the mlb system] set up for the benefit of 30 people or oganisations, who are in effect an cartel based oligarchy designed to make money for themselves.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

The draft wasn't set up to assure an equitable distribution of talent, it was implemented by owners who couldn't trust themselves not to bankrupt one another chasing talent in an actual free market. It's ridiculously unfair to players and only stands to become more so by implementing rigid caps.

It's only a matter of time before an agent representing an amateur player has the stones to challenge the legality of the draft. It would bring the whole shebang crashing down.

Nobody is stopping owners from sharing their own revenues more equitably: It's just that they'd prefer to make it work economically on the backs of their employees.

[Vic Sage]

edgy, duan, dickshot... ditto.

i hope my insight has been useful.