Nady for Bert and Perez - What Do YOU Think?

[Elster88]

Taking everything into consideration, what do you think of the trade.

Initial reactions are welcome, long-winded thought out essays are too. There is no weenie-option in this poll.

[Guest cooby]

I don't like losing Nady already. I have no problem with having Roberto Hernandez back. I chose I don't like deal.

[Elster88]

I look at it this way, too.

The Yankees got Abreu for...hmmm, let's see, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

We gave up our #7 hitter, (#6 when Floyd is out, which has been just over 1/4 of the season so far) for a 42 year old middle reliever.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I went with hate. Smells of panic. Wasn't necessary.

The injury to Sanchez weakened the team. I think this deal weakened it a little bit more.

[Elster88]

Oh yeah, hate for me, too.

My comments from the other thread:

Elster88 wrote: Rotblatt wrote: Maybe we can trade Bell for someone like Robo in a salary dump? You see, this is the trade we should have made. Why the hell do you give up Nady for a 42 (43?) year old middle reliever? I know Nady's not an All-Star or anything but come on. GMs shouldn't panic.

[Gwreck]

Elster88 wrote: I look at it this way, too. The Yankees got Abreu for...hmmm, let's see, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Assuming that the Phillies were happy to trade intradivision, the Mets could've hade Abreu too. It was a pure salary dump. Irrelevant to this discussion I think.

[Centerfield]

I hate this deal. So much so that I wish we had gotten Abreu instead.

[Elster88]

Gwreck wrote: Elster88 wrote: I look at it this way, too. The Yankees got Abreu for...hmmm, let's see, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Assuming that the Phillies were happy to trade intradivision, the Mets could've hade Abreu too. It was a pure salary dump. Irrelevant to this discussion I think.

Irrelevant may be a little strong. My point is that the Mets didn't need to give up Nady to get Robo. If they did have to, they shouldn't have done it.

[seawolf17]

Dislike. We weren't getting Abreu; the Phils weren't sending him somewhere they'll see him nineteen games a year.

[Elster88]

I think what I said was unclear. I didn't mean to say we should've gotten Abreu. I just meant to use it as an example of what an All-Star outfielder just went for in a trade, and comparing it to what our productive outfielder went for in a trade.

[Vic Sage]

Nady was a serviceable RFer who'll likely be replaced in the lineup by Milledge (mostly). I don't see a big dropoff there, and there's a possiblity of much greater production from the 5-tool rookie.

as for Hernandez and Perez... Aside from ongoing control problems, Perez lost 5 MPH off his fastball and has been suckola ever since. Hernandez is a barely-hanging-on 41-year old setup guy, brought in to replace D.Sanchez. But is he really that much better than either Bell, Maine, Owens or whomever the Mets have floating around right now? Better enough to give away a decent 27-yr old RF/1Bman with pop?

I don't mind giving Nady's job to Milledge, but we could have filled the RHP hole from within and moved Nady for a decent prospect or 2, if we were so anxious to dump him, after dumping Cammy's salary to acquire hm in the first place.

I don't like the trade... we didn't get comparable value. I'm not sanguine about Robo helping very much, given his secondary numbers, and Perez is not worth a damn thing. And we still need a better starter than trax as our #3, and a LHed bat off the bench.

[Guest Mr. Zero]

Dislike. I'm thinking we could have pillaged the Pirates for a better deal and held on to Nady. The Yankees picked up Craig Wilson for freakin' Shawn freakin' Chacon. I'm sure a wet bag of balls would have done it.

[Elster88]

Vic Sage wrote: Nady was a serviceable RFer who'll likely be replaced in the lineup by Milledge (mostly). I don't see a big dropoff there, and there's a possiblity of much greater production from the 5-tool rookie. ... I don't mind giving Nady's job to Milledge, but we could have filled the RHP hole from within and moved Nady for a decent prospect or 2, if we were so anxious to dump him, after dumping Cammy's salary to acquire hm in the first place.

I disagree with this analysis for two reasons:

1. I think the dropoff from Nady to Milledge is huge right now. I don't think Milledge is ready for playoff baseball with either offensively or defensively. Of course that can change in the future, but I'm not comfortable with Milledge in the lineup come playoff time.

2. I saw Milledge replacing Floyd next year, and Nady staying on the team. Now we replace Nady with Milledge, and have to find another outfielder next year if Floyd moves on.

[Edgy MD]

Milledge also puts the Mets in a position of relying on an X factor on a team that had been seriously stabilized to this point. You should have a pretty good idea of what you're going to get from Nady from this point forward. Milledge may give you more, or may give you a headache, you have no idea.

Hernandez hasn't been striking them out at the same rate as last year (6.91/9, compared to 7.88), but he's been effective. In short, I disagree wtih Vic on some points, but agree that we didn't get equal value.

I just hate trades. "Duaner's hurt? That's awful. Heath, Henry, we need you to step into the breach."

That's the American way.

[Centerfield]

In two trades, Omar turned a 30 HR, 30 steal Gold Glove CF-er into a 25 year old bust of a pitcher getting beat up in AAA, and a 41 year old reliever making so much we thought it wasn't worth to sign him (without giving up anyone) at the beginning of the season.

Bad bad bad.

[Gwreck]

Centerfield wrote: In two trades, Omar turned a 30 HR, 30 steal Gold Glove CF-er into a 25 year old bust of a pitcher getting beat up in AAA, and a 41 year old reliever making so much we thought it wasn't worth to sign him (without giving up anyone) at the beginning of the season. Bad bad bad.

I loved Mike Cameron too, but his 30 HRs was a career high; he'd never reached 30-30 in the same season, hadn't reached 30 steals since 2002.

Plus the $$ saved, which (if we believe what's been said) was important to us getting Delgado.

[Guest Rotblatt]

I don't see how you can write off Perez so easily. He's only 25 and his pitching coach has been fucking with him incessantly since 2004.

At the very least, he's a young guy with upside.

Regarding Robo, I'm worried about his peripherals too, but I'm going to give Ricky a little benefit of the doubt here. By all accounts, Peterson helped Robo round into form last year, and maybe he can do the same again. At any rate, though, I think he'll be better than Bell, who, for whatever reason, just never got it going at the MLB level.

Oh, and doesn't the poor return for Abreu just demonstrate how weak the market is for OFs? I mean, we DID get more for our average OF than the Phillies got for their all-star OF.

[Centerfield]

Metsblog now says the Mets are denying the Linebrink deal. I wonder if Omar did this deal to set up for the Linebrink deal, then hit a snag.

Otherwise this deal makes no fucking sense to me. I hate trades.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Cameron is like Itchy in that Fantasia/Simpsons cartoon, where he gets hacked into increasingly granular pieces, then finally into a vapor, which gets inhaled and then destroys the cat from the inside.

[Guest cooby]

Rotblatt wrote: I don't see how you can write off Perez so easily. He's only 25 and his pitching coach has been fucking with him incessantly since 2004. At the very least, he's a young guy with upside. .

Agreed about Oliver Perez, he could turn out to really be something

[Elster88]

I don't see how you can write off Perez so easily. He's only 25 and his pitching coach has been fucking with him incessantly since 2004. At the very least, he's a young guy with upside.

He could be good. I just don't think he will. And I generally don't think a "could be" guy should be considered as a huge part of the equation when considering a trade.

Especially not one who just gave up, what was it, 8 runs in a third of an innning...in AAA.

[Vic Sage]

i had the misfortune of gambling on Perez for my fantasy teams the last 2 years, based on his "upside", and i got creamed for it. Paying attention to reports about him led me to read stories on a regular basis about his lost velocity after an arm injury. I can write off a guy with control problems who has lost his fastball... and i can do so quite easily.

Yes, I'd prefer to have Nady this year over Milledge, but this is as good as Nady has ever been, and its only ok. If we wanted to move him in a 3-way that netted us a Linebrink-level setup guy, + Stairs-type LHed bat off the bench, then i wouldn't have been heartbroken to watch him go. But for Robo and Perez?

Puhleez.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I really don't like this deal. The line up just got a little weaker and we still didn't improve the rotation. Instead we trade a starting outfielder for a soon to be 42 year old reliever that the Mets let walk at the end of last season.

I think all Mets should be banned from using taxis. Hell, most of them are millionaires. They should be riding in limos.

[Farmer Ted]

I said this in the x-man gone thread, I would have rather seen Milledge go for a starting arm than X-Man for two bullpen arms. The Mets are going to take the division so you need three starters for the playoffs. Pedro, Glavine and Schmidt/Oswalt. El Duque goes to the pen to take the Sanchez spot in the playoffs.

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

I haven't absorbed it enough yet to form an opinion. In my mind the Mets have flipped Perez for the trade that didn't happen, so now I have to evaluate it based on what we have.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Roberto 2006: 1 PRAA (Pitching Runs Against Average)
Nady 2006: 3 BRAA (Batting RAA), -3 FRAA (Fielding RAA)

Now, I know fielding stats are unreliable, but even looking at just the offensive portion, Nady has been average at best. Hernandez has also been average. I would normally argue that a swap of an average RF for an average RP is a bad idea, but in this case, we also got a starting pitcher.

i had the misfortune of gambling on Perez for my fantasy teams the last 2 years, based on his "upside", and i got creamed for it. Paying attention to reports about him led me to read stories on a regular basis about his lost velocity after an arm injury. I can write off a guy with control problems who has lost his fastball... and i can do so quite easily.

Again, they fucked with his delivery leading into 2005, and he decided to revert to his old delivery only in May of this year. Now, maybe he's injured or he was on steroids in 2004 and he'll never be the same, etc. etc., but maybe he just had a shitty pitching coach and just needs some time to work his shit out. He's turning only 25 in about two weeks and he spent a big chunk of last year on the DL (okay, so 2 months were due to his kicking a laundry cart, which I'll grant isn't a point in his favor), so to me, it seems like there's reason for optimism.

In terms of upside, PECOTA thinks Perez & Nady are fairly similar in projected RAA over the next 5 years, but they also don't have a good handle on Perez (Similarity Index of 18--anything below 20 is "historically unusual.") whereas Nady they feel they've got pegged (SI of 67).

Anyway, I hear where y'all are coming from. Perez is a gamble who might not be worth anything to us, whereas Nady will pretty clearly have value over the next few years. Personally, though, I like this gamble. With Chavez & Milledge, Nady was redundant, so we took a short-term shot on solidifying our suddenly wounded bullpen AND a long-term shot on our rotation.

[Centerfield]

The more I think about today, we basically lost two players. The injury to Sanchez I can live with. The trade I can't.

Basically, with Sanchez going down, our bullpen gets weakened, but there's a chance that with Pelfrey or Maine going to the pen, he could fill Sanchez's role. And if neither of them can, maybe Bannister can...or Owens...whatever. We have two months to mix and match and see what works.

In the post-season, our fifth starter goes to our pen...and maybe even Darren Oliver can chip in here and there. In any case, there were solutions on the team that may be just as good as Robo.

So with that being the case, you don't just throw away Nady. He'll hit 20 HR's this year and play solid defense.

Bad bad Omar.

[metirish]

He'll hit 20 HR's this year and play solid defense.

Well I'm not so sure he plays solid defence, they must think Milledge will be better,not so sure about that either..and Omar on the FAN claimed that the Pirates didn't know about the Sanchez injury so no he didn't feel over the barrel.

Some girl on the FAN gave a good account of herself and why she thought Omar gave up too much for Bert, then she said as a woman she's sad because well he's hot.." don't the Mets want to sell tickets to women?"....kinda funny.

[smg58]

Our defense is upgraded considerably by this. As far as offense goes, it depends on what Milledge learned during his first stint here. Given the obvious difference in upside, I don't think the Mets will suffer from this. I have to think, though, that Minaya could have found somebody more appealing than Shawn Chacon to throw in to get Craig Wilson if he wanted to.

Hopefully Bert can be as good for us as he was last year. His WHIP has been awful, but his ERA is very good; I'm not sure what to make of that. But I don't see why Peterson can't get the best out of him again, and with Sanchez hurt the pen became a more urgent need than the elite starters that weren't actually available.

I don't know if Perez can remember how to pitch in a month, but even if he's decent by April he'll be worth the gamble.

All that being said, I feel horrible for Nady. Yes he was ordinary, but he did make some significant contributions to get the Mets where they are, and now he's stuck on the worst team in baseball. And presumably he woke up this morning with no inclination that he might be going anywhere. Obviously it was strictly business and nothing personal, but that's one bitter pill to swallow.

[Zvon]

I think this deal could have been done with less impact on the starting lineup---that is to say it could have been done for less than Nady.

The Sanchez accident effects our bullpen and this trade effects our bench.
Both have been great for us.
Both are now changed.

I dont totally hate this trade- We all know that Hernandez can be a very effective guy out of the pen.
I know that Perez has the arm to be an excellent pitcher. He can bring it.

But I think Omar could have pulled it off with less of a ripple effect on the team at the MLB level.