Post-Trade-Deadline Grumbling (Split from Aug 4 IGT)

[Ceetar]

=Gwreck post_id=102208 time=1659575235 user_id=56]
Grumble under breath that Eppler was willing to make a stupid trade of a great prospect in 2021 when Mets didn't have a great chance, but now was gunshy about doing so.

[Edgy MD]

I'm-a never going to equate making deals with "going for it."



I'm biased, because I hate trades on principle, but going for it can also mean committing to and believing in who you have.



Who did the 1988 Mets trade for at the deadline? Edwin Nuñez?

[Gwreck]

=Ceetar post_id=102211 time=1659578529 user_id=102]
=Gwreck post_id=102208 time=1659575235 user_id=56]
Grumble under breath that Eppler was willing to make a stupid trade of a great prospect in 2021 when Mets didn't have a great chance, but now was gunshy about doing so.

[G-Fafif]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm-a never going to equate making deals with "going for it." I'm biased, because I hate trades on principle, but going for it can also mean committing to and believing in who you have. Who did the 1988 Mets trade for at the deadline? Edwin Nuñez?

Nuñez and Bob McClure, the latter of whom was the lefty specialist those times, like these times, demanded…and the lefty specialist who made little difference. Nuñez, meanwhile, didn't make the postseason roster.

[Gwreck]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm-a never going to equate making deals with "going for it." I'm biased, because I hate trades on principle, but going for it can also mean committing to and believing in who you have.

It's fine to hate trades. Not every trade gets you Keith Hernandez or Yoenis Cespedes.



But can we at least agree agree that that the Mets had spots in their lineup and bullpen that could have been upgraded with better talent?

[Ceetar]

=Gwreck post_id=102215 time=1659582395 user_id=56]




Can barely keep them straight, there are so many. At least this guy has demonstrated normal professional judgment?

[Edgy MD]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm-a never going to equate making deals with "going for it." I'm biased, because I hate trades on principle, but going for it can also mean committing to and believing in who you have. It's fine to hate trades. Not every trade gets you Keith Hernandez or Yoenis Cespedes. But can we at least agree agree that that the Mets had spots in their lineup and bullpen that could have been upgraded with better talent?

Maybe. Or (1) the allegedly better talent could turn out to be not so good, displacing players that might have played better, or (2) the players relegated to lesser roles turn out be lost opportunities, or (3) the espirit d'corps of the team is undermined, or (4) the talent the team gives up turns out to be the difference in games and championships not won further down the road.



Every trade made features somebody trying to get the best of you. Often, the best trade is the one you don't make. Maybe the Mets didn't make that trade this week and we don't even know about it.

[Gwreck]

Edgy MD wrote: =Gwreck post_id=102217 time=1659582961 user_id=56]But can we at least agree agree that that the Mets had spots in their lineup and bullpen that could have been upgraded with better talent?

Maybe.

[Edgy MD]

As for J.D Davis, somebody clearly did take his roster spot, so there's no argument there.



As far as "there are always potential collateral consequences," that's why deals aren't made. We have no idea.

[Gwreck]

Of course we can't predict the future. But history has value. And it does tell us that trading prospects at the deadline rarely comes back to bite the Mets.



In the last 25 years, the prospects the Mets truly regret trading, in which the value they traded away was greater than the value received are…Kazmir and Melvin Mora? Any maybe Jason Bay (who went through a second organization before becoming a star).

[Edgy MD]

Veteran catchers exchanged at the deadline:



Cam Gallagher: His track record suggests he's better ... -ish than Nido with the bat, though probably not better than McCann, depending on how much you believe the track record determines who he is. Is he better enough to make up for the better-ish track record Nido has defensively? Or to make up for the impact of changing your pitchers' receiver at this juncture while they are clicking on virtually all cylinders? I can see how that might be a tough call.





Reese McGuire: This is Cam Gallagher with less of a track record. Boston didn't get him to upgrade for a playoff run. They got him to audition for the future as he replaces the guy they gave up, who is ...



Christian Vázquez: Has been more than a part-timer but less than a regular through his career, and while generally being McCannish with the bat, is having his best season offensively. He's probably at least a little over the hill defensively, but has caught big shot veteran pitchers in the past so he comes with some authority. Would he have to adapt to the Mets staff and he to them? Certainly, but it'd probably, hopefully be a quicker adjustment than the previous two characters.



This is the best choice of the three, I think. Is the chance that there is an improvement to be had there worth topping Houston's offer of Triple-A infielder Enmanuel Valdez and Double-A outfielder Wilyer Abreu? I am comfortable in declaring that I just don't know.

[Edgy MD]

=Gwreck post_id=102222 time=1659586686 user_id=56]In the last 25 years, the prospects the Mets truly regret trading, in which the value they traded away was greater than the value received are…Kazmir and Melvin Mora? Any maybe Jason Bay (who went through a second organization before becoming a star).

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: The worst part is that Valentine knew Mora was better, no matter what the track record said, but acknowledged that the organization was under a lot of fan pressure.

If they were under a lot of fan pressure, the fucking Wilpons brought it on themselves. Why get a good shortstop when you can fool the rube portion of the fan base into thinking you already have a good shortstop by hyping the shit 24/7 out of Rey Fraudonez and having the audacity to put him on the same level with Nomar, Jeter and A-Rod? Know what happened when their crappy feeble shortstop missed the entire second half of a season? The Mets went to the World Series.

[Gwreck]

Edgy MD wrote: =Gwreck post_id=102222 time=1659586686 user_id=56]In the last 25 years, the prospects the Mets truly regret trading, in which the value they traded away was greater than the value received are…Kazmir and Melvin Mora? Any maybe Jason Bay (who went through a second organization before becoming a star).

That's all you can come up with? Even those are enormous, and enough to realize that deadline deals can be very costly.



I'm not sure where 25 years comes in, but I can certainly offer more. Jason Isringhausen. Ty Wigginton. Jeff Keppinger — the throw-in in the Wigginton deal. Brian Bannister. I'm only thinking of midsummer, pump-up-for-the-race deals here.

[Fman99]

This would all be much easier to stomach if McCann wasn't so fucking bad at hitting.

[Edgy MD]

But again, the point is - and as is supported by history - only rarely have prospect trades “burned” the Mets.

This isn't really analysis — any more than, "Only rarely have veteran trades helped the Mets," which is true enough, depending on how you define ambiguous terms to suit the argument.



I obviously disagree that Isringhausen doesn't count, any more than J.D. Davis not counting or Mora not counting. And if you summarize "prospect trades," irregardless of the time of season, it's far from true that the team hasn't been hurt.



I'm not sure what we disagree on beyond that, because none of us knows the deals the Mets opted not to consummate. We don't know if the Cubs were asking for Francisco Álvarez or Cody Bohanek. Any of us can superimpose what was on the table, but we just don't know.



There was a saying at the MOFo: All threads lead to Rey. I wasn't expecting this one to.

[Ceetar]

There were obvious solutions out there that would make the Mets better, shore up weak points, shore against injury or fatigue. They opted to make a few low-leverage moves around the edges.



But it's a business. This comes up every year, for most teams. The difference between the Mets making the NLCS and losing and winning the World Series are ASTRONOMICAL to fans, but negligible for ownership and even front offices.



Big five game series starts tonight, might be the last really big series until the playoffs. They're still a good team with a good chance, and there's pretty much nothing we can do about it now.

[kcmets]

Kyle Wright

(#30, 26, RHP, 13-4, 2.93)

Carlos Carrasco

(#59, 35, RHP, 11-4, 3.79)

[metsmarathon]

=Fman99 post_id=102229 time=1659616717 user_id=86]
This would all be much easier to stomach if McCann wasn't so fucking bad at hitting.

[Ceetar]

Contreras had has many walks and home runs as the Mets catchers in July too, despite a .208 babip. I'd hope the Mets aren't stupid enough to overvalue the 85 PA of July over the total of the 2676 previous ones that are IMMENSELY better. That was the true talent level of the Mets catchers, and McCann ain't much better.



They ultimately didn't trade him so maybe what they were asking for was ridiculous, but it was a pretty poor deadline, again, by the Mets, and sometimes that's your own fault, not all the other teams, but I'm sure Sandy or Eppler will get up there and trot out the usual "We were surprised at the asking prices" line.

[metsmarathon]

or they look at mccann's 0.200 babip for the season and think, yeah, that should get better without costing us a player.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: But again, the point is - and as is supported by history - only rarely have prospect trades “burned” the Mets. This isn't really analysis — any more than, "Only rarely have veteran trades helped the Mets," which is true enough, depending on how you define ambiguous terms to suit the argument. I obviously disagree that Isringhausen doesn't count, any more than J.D. Davis not counting or Mora not counting. And if you summarize "prospect trades," irregardless of the time of season, it's far from true that the team hasn't been hurt. I'm not sure what we disagree on beyond that, because none of us knows the deals the Mets opted not to consummate. We don't know if the Cubs were asking for Francisco Álvarez or Cody Bohanek. Any of us can superimpose what was on the table, but we just don't know. There was a saying at the MOFo: All threads lead to Rey. I wasn't expecting this one to.

Sometimes, it's a balancing act, where a team will knowingly trade away future value for a better chance at the title right now. The very best organizations work that way all the time. So nobody's necessarily getting fleeced. A prospect with a very high ceiling is baseball capital, to be used just like money. Treat yourself to a fancy dinner at a high end restaurant. Or three dinners at a reasonably priced restaurant. Use it to pay your cable bill. Or bank it with the rest of your savings. Many ways to use it. These kind of trades that you seem to abhor so much are really informed decisions. (But you're free to still abhor them).



deGrom and Scherzer are closer to 40 than to 30 and so the window with those two at the top of the rotation has to be closing. And pitchers that old can decline drastically in a heartbeat right before your eyes. They dont necessarily have to decline during the off season. They could be effective in August and toast in September. Many followers felt an urgency to act now. Anyways, Cohen is resourceful and will, I imagine, open up new windows when the time comes.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Guest

[whippoorwill]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm-a never going to equate making deals with "going for it." I'm biased, because I hate trades on principle, but going for it can also mean committing to and believing in who you have. It's fine to hate trades. Not every trade gets you Keith Hernandez or Yoenis Cespedes. But can we at least agree agree that that the Mets had spots in their lineup and bullpen that could have been upgraded with better talent?

My cats could have upgraded their bullpen

[Benjamin Grimm]

I wish my cats would upgrade their litter box.

[Ceetar]

=metsmarathon post_id=102248 time=1659629167 user_id=83]
or they look at mccann's 0.200 babip for the season and think, yeah, that should get better without costing us a player.

[kcmets]

=Ceetar post_id=102252 time=1659631349 user_id=102]and they didn't even try.

[Frayed Knot]

The fact that nobody traded for Contreras at least hints at the idea that the Cubs asking price was high, higher than anyone wanted to pay. Him Not being with the Cubs by August 3rd was considered the surest thing going into this season's trading splurge.



This all reminds me of the 'Rumor Mill' days of the MoFo when all sorts of hypotheticals from all sorts of sources (real and imagined) were thrown against the wall, only to have someone wail afterward about why Steve Phillips didn't make the Really Good Player for Really Bad Met deal when it was on the table!!

[Edgy MD]

That may be so. Were they available at the trade deadline?



For now, the Mets are third in the league in relief ERA. That's despite that number being skewed by the one reliever they picked up at the deadline, clocking in with a 67.50 mark after yesterday.



Sometimes you buy a high end meal and it's awful. And you get food poisoning. And you realize that you had perfectly good food at home, but you ruined your relationship with your date going against your better judgment.



To switch metaphors, birds in the bush are not necessarily better than birds in the hand, and I don't believe that bagging one no matter the price is the only way to go for it.



And lastly, we don't know what was available at what price. And something something Rey Ordóñez.

[batmagadanleadoff]

And your untouchable future superstar could be Shawn Abner or Billy Beane. Which is much likelier. And a Mack truck could run me over on the way to the supermarket. Or some lunatic with an AR-15 could shoot up the whole supermarket right after my arrival. I think I should never go to the supermarket ever again.

[Ceetar]

Sure, you can get food poisoning from the best chef in the world, but if my goal is a superlative meal, that chef has served 100s of them, and I've served a handful. I know which odds I'd like.



I mean, the Mets could put ME up there in the bottom of the 9th to close out a 1 run game with 2 outs, bases loaded and the batter could hit my meatball 140mph and so straight that it literally hits Lindor's glove right in the pocket, and we win...



..but I'd still rather we upgrade that position.