Let's talk about Francisco Lindor

[smg58]

The difference with Piazza/Hundley was that Hundley wouldn't play until September and the catchers the Mets had available were replacement level. So you were upgrading from replacement level to Hall-of-Famer. That's not the case here. Lindor is an elite defender at SS who can give you an OPS in the mid-.800s, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at. But I'd be more interested in a pitcher of comparable value for the same price tag, because the need is greater. I wouldn't rule it out necessarily, but it's not my plan A.

[Edgy MD]

Listen to smg disrespecting Todd Spehr and Rick Wilkins. I mean, he's absolutely right, but it's such a savaging.

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: We could use a MLB catcher and a world-class centerfielder and probably 2 good starting pitchers

Mallex Smith says that he's got that second item covered.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: If you want to argue for a trade this off-season involving Lindor on the assumption that he's a lock to sign a year and that some of your more tradable chips won't be needed for other spots, then do that.

I'm certain that that's precisely what I've been doing all thread long.

Frayed Knot wrote: But otherwise you're arguing against points that aren't being made here, in opposition to an owner who no longer owns, and for signings that either couldn't then (Realmuto) or can't now (Lindor) be made.

So lemme get this straight. We have this Francisco Lindor thread. And all of the talk before I ever appeared here centered around whether the Mets should or shouldn't pursue Lindnor. But ... What are you saying? That I'm not allowed to chime in? That Edgy's free to opine that he's against it. But I can't put my two cents in here in favor of acquiring Lindnor? Is that what you're saying? That Nomar's free to opine that he's against giving up both Rosario and Gimenez for Lindnor but that I'm not permitted to respond that with Lindnor, they're both expendable and on top that, that I think Rosario sucks anyways? Is that what you're saying? And that I can't post here because I wished the Mets signed Realmuto two years ago?



And the Wilpons. I'm opposing the Wilpons in this thread? Where? They're fucking gone. What do the Wilpons have to do with my posts in this thread? You brought up the Wilpons to use against me in this thread. You know, I once opined, going into the 2019 season, that Josh Donaldson was probably washed up. I was wrong. Are you going to hold that against me in this thread, too?



And why wouldn't the Mets be able to sign Lindnor? Steve Cohen has more money than the combined wealth of MLB's next three richest owners. Plus, if the Mets pursue Lindnor, Sandy gets on the phone with Lindnor's agent to find out what it'll take which is what every team in every sport does.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

=smg58 post_id=50386 time=1605055873 user_id=62]
... I'd be more interested in a pitcher of comparable value for the same price tag, because the need is greater. I wouldn't rule it out necessarily, but it's not my plan A.

[Centerfield]

Let's assume this front office to be named later is smart.



You trade for Lindor if:



1. You are certain, through discussions with his agent, that he is open to signing here.



2. And you are prepared to pay him the type of money he can't pass up. Preferably before he plays a game. This is what the Dodgers did with Betts.



3. And you decide that this is the best use of your resources. As JCL said, you can only trade players once. And even as rich as Cohen is, there is a limit.



I think there is a lot of question whether the third prong is met, especially with Story set to hit the market next year.



I tend to think an Alderson led team will be more patient.

[Edgy MD]

The only way to be certain that he's open to signing here is to sign him here.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: The only way to be certain that he's open to signing here is to sign him here.

One can be reasonably certain, depending on the discussion. If you don't get there, you don't make the trade.

[Edgy MD]

Well, the way the do that is to offer a period of a few days, where the deal is not finalized until an agreement on an extension is reached. I still think that deal is overpaying, especially in a shortstop-crowded marketplace, but that's the way to ensure an extension.



But I'm good with the Springer/McCann/Stroman priority system. If there's to be a consolidation trade, it's probably best to store up chips for a pitcher.

[nymr83]

=Centerfield post_id=50397 time=1605096830 user_id=65]
And even as rich as Cohen is, there is a limit.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: Well, the way the do that is to offer a period of a few days, where the deal is not finalized until an agreement on an extension is reached. I still think that deal is overpaying, especially in a shortstop-crowded marketplace, but that's the way to ensure an extension. But I'm good with the Springer/McCann/Stroman priority system. If there's to be a consolidation trade, it's probably best to store up chips for a pitcher.

It's also possible that the Mets will be the only team (or one of very few) interested in Lindor in this COVID environment, and the price in players might be cheaper than expected.

[Edgy MD]

Indeed, and the deep shortstop market, and Cleveland's announced intention to deal him off also speak to that.



I'm speaking mostly in response to the deal proposed up further in the thread. That struck me as Cleveland trying to hit the trifecta for pantsing the Mets a third time by dealing them marquee infielders for a generous package.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I think that signing Lindnor will be the easier part. If the Yankees can give Stanton the biggest contract ever and then give Cole the biggest contract ever, and then carry both of those contracts simultaneously, then Steve Cohen, who can buy out the Steinbrenners three or four times over, can do the same.



The harder part will be trading for Lindnor. That's where the Mets could have stiff competition. The Yankees, for one example, are loaded with prospects and tradeable chips. The question is whether those other teams with the primo trade bait can foot Lindnor's long term bill.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Indeed, and the deep shortstop market....

I don't know about a deep shortstop market but I can thiink of only one multiple Gold Glove winning, .300 hitting shortstop with three top-10 and one second-10 MVP award finishes who topped 30 home runs in each of the last three 162 game seasons and who hasn't even reached his chronological prime yet.

[Edgy MD]

Well, https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/semiema01.shtmlMarcus Semien demands your love.



Don't believe me? Well, take https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=kim---001ha-Ha-Seong Kim on a date and tell me you ain't turned on.



And who's that? That's https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gregodi01.shtmlDidi Gregorious! He's at your back door, singing a love song with an armful of roses and a calling card from John Sterling.



You want a Gold Glove? Well https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simmoan01.shtmlAndrelton Simmons has four of those, two in each league, and I heard he likes your type.



That's just looking at the free agency market. I'm not saying the Mets should necessarily place them or anybody as a more desirable commodity than Francisco Lindor, even with Lindor coming off his worst season (to the extent that 2020 can be called a season). I'm just noting that the high incidence of consolation prizes (and the above ones only cost money), could (or maybe should) depress the market for Francisco Lindor to some extent. Hopefully that will mean any Mets offer won't be as dear as Giménez/Rosario/Davis.



https://www.bleachernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Ha-Seong-Kim-GettyImages-1268022281.jpg>

[Centerfield]

=nymr83 post_id=50413 time=1605110889 user_id=54]
=Centerfield post_id=50397 time=1605096830 user_id=65]
And even as rich as Cohen is, there is a limit.

[Frayed Knot]

ALL spending has a limit. It's just that not all limits are as limiting as others.



Where this winter puts the Mets in at least a theoretical advantage is that most clubs look to be tapped out on their budgets on account of Covid losses while uncle Stevie doesn't have that around his neck -- well, as a minority partner, he likely had to kick some money into the pot to cover shortfalls but not to the degree that other owners did in 2020 -- so he can be spending while others tighten. That shouldn't mean it's a good time to start tossing it around like a drunken sailor on shore leave, but it's certainly a better position to be in than one with loans, Madoff clawbacks, and other deficits over your head.

[batmagadanleadoff]

So we shouldn't pursue Lindnor because his contract might break the 2021 budget and thus prevent the Mets from filling other needs. That's all master-of-the-obvious stuff, not to mention vague and nebulous. But I suppose I could get behind that thinking, especially if I knew what the actual Mets budget's going to be and what it's gonna take to sign Lindnor. Maybe youse can tell me what those budgetary boundaries are, because I don't know what they are. All I know is that the Mets now have an owner that could've bought the Mets three of four times over. I might be crazy, but I'm gonna focus on the acquisition, and not the cost. Youse can worry about the budget.



Here are a couple of other reasons why I'd be against the Mets pursuing Lindnor:



1. If Lindnor goes out and has a fatal heart attack the day after signing his new Mets contract. In that case, I wouldn't recommend that the Mets pursue Lindnor.;

2. If after signing his new Mets contract, Lindnor ditches baseball altogether and decides to become a French Horn playing monk roaming the Tibetan mountainside barefoot in search of the meaning of life;

3. If Steve Cohen goes bankrupt tomorrow.

[Frayed Knot]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=50462 time=1605132570 user_id=68]
So we shouldn't pursue Lindnor because his contract might break the 2021 budget and thus prevent the Mets from filling other needs.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=50462 time=1605132570 user_id=68] So we shouldn't pursue Lindnor because his contract might break the 2021 budget and thus prevent the Mets from filling other needs.

Didn't say anything even resembling that.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: But I'm good with the Springer/McCann/Stroman priority system.

Why McCann and not Realmuto, who's the best catcher in baseball?

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: ALL spending has a limit. It's just that not all limits are as limiting as others. Where this winter puts the Mets in at least a theoretical advantage is that most clubs look to be tapped out on their budgets on account of Covid losses while uncle Stevie doesn't have that around his neck -- well, as a minority partner, he likely had to kick some money into the pot to cover shortfalls but not to the degree that other owners did in 2020 -- so he can be spending while others tighten. That shouldn't mean it's a good time to start tossing it around like a drunken sailor on shore leave, but it's certainly a better position to be in than one with loans, Madoff clawbacks, and other deficits over your head.

Ok, but what is the limit? maybe there is a theoretical limit but that limit could be 50 million higher than the Dodgers and therefore not constitute any sort of practical limit.



The only "issue" with Lindor is the talent cost to acquire him

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: ALL spending has a limit. It's just that not all limits are as limiting as others. Where this winter puts the Mets in at least a theoretical advantage is that most clubs look to be tapped out on their budgets on account of Covid losses while uncle Stevie doesn't have that around his neck -- well, as a minority partner, he likely had to kick some money into the pot to cover shortfalls but not to the degree that other owners did in 2020 -- so he can be spending while others tighten. That shouldn't mean it's a good time to start tossing it around like a drunken sailor on shore leave, but it's certainly a better position to be in than one with loans, Madoff clawbacks, and other deficits over your head. Ok, but what is the limit? maybe there is a theoretical limit but that limit could be 50 million higher than the Dodgers and therefore not constitute any sort of practical limit. The only "issue" with Lindor is the talent cost to acquire him

What a crazy new world we're in when we're in so much agreement lately. Yeah, this whole "woe is me, but the budget" thing is ridiculous. And like it's their money that Cohen's gonna spend. It's like a half a step removed from someone saying that the Mets shouldn't sign Lindnor if they can't afford him.



I'll say this: whatever budget there is or is gonna be, assuming there even is one, is gonna be totally discretionary and self-imposed. It won't be based on some actual external financial constraint. Cohen could spend $300M on payroll, obliterating whatever the MLB payroll record is, without blinking an eyeball, if that's what he wants to do.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Guest

[Marshmallowmilkshake]

=smg58 post_id=50386 time=1605055873 user_id=62]
The difference with Piazza/Hundley was that Hundley wouldn't play until September and the catchers the Mets had available were replacement level. So you were upgrading from replacement level to Hall-of-Famer. That's not the case here. Lindor is an elite defender at SS who can give you an OPS in the mid-.800s, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at. But I'd be more interested in a pitcher of comparable value for the same price tag, because the need is greater. I wouldn't rule it out necessarily, but it's not my plan A.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know. Realmuto is certainly in the family picture, though. I guess I'm a Yasmani Grandal guy, but he's a couple of years older than Realmuto or McCann.



Why amn't I hot for him? I'm not into seven-year commitments, I guess, no matter who's paying the bills. He seems like a red-ass, but that's hardly a rare thing in a veteran catcher. I'd certainly take him in if he's knocking at the door. Maybe I just want to be polite and not order too much.

[Frayed Knot]

Ok, but what is the limit?

Don't know, don't pretend to know, don't care.

The only "issue" with Lindor is the talent cost to acquire him

[A Boy Named Seo]

I'm fine trading for Lindor but this Lindnor character batmags is talking about is a damn imposter

[batmagadanleadoff]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: I'm fine trading for Lindor but this Lindnor character batmags is talking about is a damn imposter

Yeah, I dunno what's going on. I also misspelled Ossoff and Perdue in the other forum. I'm very accurate with name spellings and if I screw up a name, it's almost guaranteed to be a typo. But not these. Maybe I'm drunk with joy over Steve Cohen taking over here.

[Centerfield]

One thought about the two players being most discussed. And I acknowledge that it may not be an either/or situation given our new ownership. But Bauer strikes me as a guy that is pursued because he's the best available in that year. If Cole were available this offseason, would we even be thinking about him? Inconsistent career numbers. His Cy Young came in a weird, short season where he faced crap competition. Kind of a dick. I don't know.



Lindor, on the other hand, is a guy you pursue whenever he's available. Even if you already have a shortstop or three.



The acquisition. Not the cost.

[The Hot Corner]

I would like to add Lindor to the Mets roster, if the cost (players) is reasonable. The proposed Rosario/Davis/Giminez deal is a little steep, but not totally unreasonable. I'm just not convinced that shortstop is the area of greatest need for the Mets. I would prefer the Mets use their trading chips to secure a proven frontline starter, catcher, or centerfielder. If the teams management feels they can secure a few of those needs through free agency, then I am okay with using their trading chips to upgrade the team at other positions. It would be nice to at least secure one of the more pressing needs before using trading chips elsewhere.

[Centerfield]

Lindor trade. Happening now per Jeff Passan.