Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

[Guest 41Forever]

Ballot Tracker has just under half the ballots and has Rivera, Halladay, Martinez and Mussina being inducted, with Schilling, Clemens and Bonds just falling short.



The inductees are being announced Jan. 22, so it's a shame that he's been able to collect just under half. Doesn't he usually get a larger percentage? My guess is that while some of the writers revel in their ballots and attracting attention for controversial selections or lack of selection, some this year are keeping their head low, fearing some kind of pushback. There was one writer who said he didn't want to vote for Rivera, so he's not voting at all this year, which is a cop out.



I don't think Rivera is going to be the first unanimous selection. Someone in those 200 remaining ballots isn't going to vote for him. I think we've seen in the past that when all the ballots are counted, the percentages drop a little bit, especially on the guys on the fence. I would not be surprised if Mussina drops below 75 percent and will probably get in next year. I think Martinez will make it, but his percentage will drop into the 80s.



Imagine if Schilling, Clemens and Bonds all go in next year. The most unpopular class ever?



Larry Walker has one more year of eligibility after this, and is within striking distance for next year. Todd Helton seems a little low. He might be one of those guys who slowly gains over a decade.



Mariano Rivera 100.0%

Roy Halladay 94.1%

Edgar Martinez 91.0%

Mike Mussina 82.4%

Curt Schilling 73.9%

Roger Clemens 72.9%

Barry Bonds 72.3%

Larry Walker 67.0%

Omar Vizquel 37.2%

Fred McGriff 36.7%

Manny Ramirez 26.1%

Scott Rolen 21.3%

Todd Helton 19.7%

Billy Wagner 16.0%

Jeff Kent 15.4%

Sammy Sosa 12.8%

Gary Sheffield 12.8%

Andruw Jones 9.0%

Andy Pettitte 6.4%





I'm always curious about the writers who only vote for one or two players. Their justification columns are usually pretty infuriating. Here's one from Paul Daugherty of the Cincinnati Enquirer, who buried his ballot at the end of a column on other things. He doesn't like designated hitters, and thinks Mussina and Halladay are similar, but voted for Halladay, in part, because he pitched more complete games.

MY HOF BALLOT IS IN THE MAIL. I voted for exactly two guys: Mariano Rivera and Roy Halladay. This admission will provoke various reactions from the know-it-all stats brigade, none of them pleasant. Yeah? So? i'm gonna write a whole TM column explaining myself. Suffice to say here that I am a bit of a grinch when it comes to the Hall, and I don't apologize for it. I don't vote for guys who were very good, because it's not the Hall of Very Good. Maybe baseball should open a new place for guys who are borderline. The HOVG would include Mike Mussina, Larry Walker, Gary Sheffield and Curt Schilling. A statue out front, for Fred McGriff. Mussina likely will make the cut this year. I have no big issue with that, nor with the metrics employed in his defense. But here's the thing: Who feared Mike Mussina? What team of hitters went into a big September series saying, “Man, I'm glad we miss Mussina?'' There are numbers that suggest in some ways, Mussina was better than Bob Gibson. Which shows how easily maneuvered numbers can be. To be a HOFer as a pitcher, you better have been the sheriff at high noon. Mussina wasn't. Besides, if he makes it, he'll go in with the 2nd-highest ERA of any pitcher in the Hall. Folks like to cite that Mussina worked his whole career in the big-bat AL East. OK. He also worked for two teams (Orioles, Yankees) that were mostly successful. Did they not help him compile those numbers? Halladay was Mussina with fewer years. Halladay won two Cys and threw a no-hitter in October. Remember? Halladay was a horse. Between 2006 and 2011, he never pitched fewer than 220 innings a year. He led the league in complete games seven times, five of them in a row. What's a complete game, Doc? Exactly. He had eight in 2011. Since then, no pitcher has had more than six. In this era of “openers'' and 5-inning aces, that's big stuff. I also didn't vote for Edgar Martinez. Longtime DHs don't get my vote.

The Newsday guys were pretty skimpy, too. David Lennon voted for three players, Steven Marcus for two. Lennon is pissed about Harold Baines getting in, and limited his ballot to Rivera, Clemens and Bonds as a result. Marcus voted for Rivera and Martinez and didn't discuss any of the other players in his column.



A guy from Forbes as a ballot, and I didn't even know Forbes covers sports. He voted for Hallady, Helton, McGriff, Rivera, and Gary Sheffield.



Rob Parker lost his Detroit News gig after controversial comments that were perceived as attacking the daughter of the Lions' coach. But he's still got a ballot, I guess because he has a radio show on I Heart Radio. He voted for five players: Bonds, Clemens, Rivera, Sheffield and Sammy Sosa, almost an all-juicer ballot. Somewhere Manny Ramierz must be pissed off.

[Edgy MD]

I don't vote for guys who were very good, because it's not the Hall of Very Good. ... But here's the thing: Who feared Mike Mussina?

While I'm sure SOME-body feared Mike Mussina, it's not the Hall of the Feared, either.



In fact, give me a Hall of the Very Good over a Hall of the Feared any day.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't get all bent out of shape over how many votes guys cast. There's no 'correct' number and I can make a case for the extra stingy crowd as much as the extra generous ones.




=41Forever post_id=1429 time=1547936587 user_id=69]
A guy from Forbes as a ballot, and I didn't even know Forbes covers sports. He voted for Hallady, Helton, McGriff, Rivera, and Gary Sheffield.

Rob Parker lost his Detroit News gig after controversial comments that were perceived as attacking the daughter of the Lions' coach. But he's still got a ballot, I guess because he has a radio show on I Heart Radio. He voted for five players: Bonds, Clemens, Rivera, Sheffield and Sammy Sosa, almost an all-juicer ballot. Somewhere Manny Ramierz must be pissed off.

[bmfc1]

"Mariano, we'll see you and most of New York, in Cooperstown." F U.

[Frayed Knot]

Rivera, Edgar, Halladay, and Mussina



And, yes, Rivera hit on all ballots.

A little surprised that Halladay went in first time, but I have no problem with any of the results.

Schilling was the highest non-electee and around 60%

[Frayed Knot]

Rivera, Edgar, Halladay, and Mussina



And, yes, Rivera hit on all ballots.

A little surprised that Halladay went in first time, but I have no problem with any of the results.

Schilling was the highest non-electee and around 60%

[ashie62]

So we got an MFY, a dope fiend and a DH. Woozer

[Edgy MD]

Amazing how, in a few short years, we've gone from a Hall electorate that resisted all but a very few relievers (and even the ones they elected, such as Wilhelm and Eckersley, spent good portions of their careers starting) to a reliever being the first unanimous electee.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: Rivera, Edgar, Halladay, and Mussina And, yes, Rivera hit on all ballots. A little surprised that Halladay went in first time, but I have no problem with any of the results. Schilling was the highest non-electee and around 60%

Halladay definitely got in on the first ballot because he died in a plane crash. You are really splitting hairs to distinguish between him, Mussina, and Schilling.



McGriff's eligibility ran out, but he'l be one of those guys like Baines that the veterans committee puts in and we all shake our heads at the lowering of HOF standards (well, at least he'll better than Baines!)



and I wish they'd cut the crap with Bonds* already, if electric pool man is unanimous why are we even discussing steroids?



*but not Clemens, fuck the MFY!

[MFS62]

Would you elect the best H-O-R-S-E player to the basketball Hall of Fame?

Would you invite the Pitch and Putt (par 3) champion to the Masters?

Of course not, because they have not demonstrated their ability to perform other key elements of their sports.

And for that reason I believe a DH should not be in the Baseball Hall of Fame with the other players. Maybe in a separate wing.



Later

[Guest 41Forever]

Saw an interesting breakdown of the votes.



Bonds, Clemens and Schilling all had just over 70 percent of the ballots collected by the Ballot Tracker guys, and they collected about 55 percent of the ballots. But Bonds, Clemens and Schilling actually received just about 60 percent of the votes. So the people who kept their votes private in large numbers didn't vote for these guys. I wonder of that's because they feared a backlash of some kind, or if they are super old-school types who don't think they should have to share with readers/listeners/viewers how they voted.

[Edgy MD]

Edgar Martinez was not a HORSE player. He played 4605 innings at third and another 224 at first.



Nonetheless, I imagine the greatest HORSE player is in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

[MFS62]

And he played 2055 games and had 8674 plate appearances. I translate that into about 8.5 innings per game.(more or less)

2055 X 8.5 = 17, 467 innings "played".

So, his 4605 + 224 = 4,829, or he played defense in 27.64% of his innings. And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

Maybe not a H-O-R-S-E, but maybe a Shetland pony.

Sounds like a neigh vote to me.(or was that a whinny?)

Later

[Edgy MD]

And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did.



Even after https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH#valuedocking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR. That's comparable to a lot of non Hall-of-Famers, but it's also comparable to Tony Gwynn, Craig Biggio, Harmon Killebrew, and Tim Raines.



It's also comparable to a lot of non-Hall-of-Famers. But it's easy enough intellectually to discredit him for not playing more defense without having to judge him as part of an arbitrary class of players who will never be allowed.



What if a guy DH's for half his career and hits 1,000 homers? If you don't want to vote for the guy, don't. There's plenty of reason not to. But refusing consideration because he DH'd is way too easy for me. He didn't make the rule.

[nymr83]

=41Forever post_id=1590 time=1548209921 user_id=69]
Saw an interesting breakdown of the votes.



Bonds, Clemens and Schilling all had just over 70 percent of the ballots collected by the Ballot Tracker guys, and they collected about 55 percent of the ballots. But Bonds, Clemens and Schilling actually received just about 60 percent of the votes. So the people who kept their votes private in large numbers didn't vote for these guys. I wonder of that's because they feared a backlash of some kind, or if they are super old-school types who don't think they should have to share with readers/listeners/viewers how they voted.

[Fman99]

I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).



I think it distracts from what is the bigger story, to me, which is Clemens and Bonds resurfacing as legitimately having a chance to get in to the HOF sometime soon, despite being very widely considered the pitcher and hitter most emblematic of using drugs to cheat.

[Frayed Knot]

=Fman99 post_id=1607 time=1548241857 user_id=86]
I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

[Frayed Knot]

=Fman99 post_id=1607 time=1548241857 user_id=86]
I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

[Frayed Knot]

Edgar Martinez career numbers vs his fellow 2019 HoF inductees: 42 for 112 including 10 doubles, 2 triples, 8 HRs, 9 walks (+ 2 IW) .375/.416/.714

[Guest 41Forever]

Frayed Knot wrote: =Fman99 post_id=1607 time=1548241857 user_id=86] I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

Yup!

Some HoF player (forget who) said that he's never heard any HoF'er asked what percentage of votes got you in and no one ever talks about how many years it took one to get elected. Either in or you're not' there aren't 'tiers' at Cooperstown no matter how hard some fans/writers try to create them.



And now that the unanimous 'barrier' has been crashed it would be nice if the whole topic can be put to bed. And, no, Mariano was not the perfect person to be the first one, he just happens the first one multiple decades and multiple candidates after it should have happened.
Edited January 23, 2019 by Guest

[MFS62]

Edgy MD wrote: And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more? That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did. Even after https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH#valuedocking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR.

His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career.

Later

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more? That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did. Even after https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH#valuedocking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR. His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career. Later

Oh. So now we're projecting? Because Martinez's full career isn't enough for you? We're supposed to evaluate HOF candidates on what they might've done? If Bud Harrelson played for 900 seasons, he'd project to having hit more HR's than Hank Aaron. Jesus H. Christ on a stick. Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history. He didn't field? And Tom Seaver couldn't hit. (lifetime.154 BA). Fans are smart enough to make adjustments for position. EM's career fWAR is about the same as Gary Carter's. You think Carter would be in if he racked up his hitting stats as a left fielder. No. He'd be off the ballot in six minutes and you wouldn't ever again hear a peep about his HOf case. But fans are smart enough to adjust becaus they know that the position is so demanding that catchers wear down earlier. They'll make the same adjustment for DH as they've been making for catcher and shortstop and relief pitcher.

[MFS62]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=1621 time=1548253380 user_id=68]
[Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Guest

[nymr83]

=MFS62 post_id=1623 time=1548254026 user_id=60]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=1621 time=1548253380 user_id=68]
[Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history.

[MFS62]

NYMR83, LOL!

You might not be too far from wrong, just like the have different exhibit rooms in the Museum of Natural History.

MFY Bleacher Creatures already have their own room. Its called the holding pen at Rikers.

Later

[seawolf17]

Like it or not, the DH is a rule. I have no qualms putting Edgar in, because he's absolutely worthy. Same with Ortiz when his time comes.



Halladay is a no-brainer to me.



Mussina? I guess. I'm not going to die on that hill.



Rivera, for all his faults (electrified pool joke!), is a no-brainer too. The *only* drawback to his election is insufferable MFY fans with the 100% thing. (Get over yourselves.)

[nymr83]

=seawolf17 post_id=1628 time=1548255306 user_id=91]
Like it or not, the DH is a rule. I have no qualms putting Edgar in, because he's absolutely worthy. Same with Ortiz when his time comes.



Halladay is a no-brainer to me.



Mussina? I guess. I'm not going to die on that hill.



Rivera, for all his faults (electrified pool joke!), is a no-brainer too. The *only* drawback to his election is insufferable MFY fans with the 100% thing. (Get over yourselves.)

[Centerfield]

Yeah. It's annoying that the unanimous thing had to be a Yankee. But I guess it's better that it's Rivera instead of Jeter. I was hoping Griffey would have been the one to do it. Stupid writers.



It's silly that it took this long to get a unanimous vote. I said way back when that if a writer doesn't recognize that Rickey Henderson is a Hall of Famer, then he's too stupid to get a vote. And I think the only reason that a unanimous vote resulted is not because of the greatness of Rivera, but because vote shaming has become a thing.



I have to admit, I am legitimately jealous of Yankee fans when it comes to the Hall of Fame. Going to Cooperstown is a blast. Taking the kids, showing them the special exhibit for Mike Piazza. Taking them to see the plaques. Yankee fans will get to do that this year with Rivera and Mussina. They'll get that experience again with Jeter, and then A-Rod after that. It's a regular thing for them. My kids will experience it once during their childhood. And sure, I've heard the argument that doing it once makes it more special. It's bullshit. If something is great, you want to do it more than once.



Maybe someday with deGrom. I don't know. Can you make the Hall with 84 career wins and a 1.89 ERA?

[batmagadanleadoff]

=Centerfield post_id=1635 time=1548256573 user_id=65]




Maybe someday with deGrom. I don't know. Can you make the Hall with 84 career wins and a 1.89 ERA?

[seawolf17]

=nymr83 post_id=1634 time=1548256380 user_id=54]the 100% thing is kinda dumb, but also shows how dumb some of the writers are. I'd like to know who voted for Rivera but didn't vote for Griffey Jr only a few years ago? take their ballots away.