EXPECTATIONS FOR 18: Mickey Callaway

[Benjamin Grimm]

The argument against it has been mentioned above. It's about the stress on the bullpen.

You're the only one who brought up "tradition" and the "win statistic".

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The argument against it has been mentioned above. It's about the stress on the bullpen. You're the only one who brought up "tradition" and the "win statistic".

there's no stress on the bullpen. there are 7+++++ guys in there. you're asking them to pitch like 5 more innings a week. they'll manage. the starters throw 180.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: so it's not tradition or the win statistic that makes you want to single out one pitcher to pitch way more innings. What is it then? Please feel free to respond to what I've written and pretty please stop trying to press upon me what I haven't written. I really don't want to have to type twice. You said it's not common and that you said nothing about tradition.

I didn't "say" anything. I wrote something. And that's not all I wrote.

Ceetar wrote: As if that refutes my point somehow,...

It absolutely does refute your mischaracterization of what I and others had written before, none of which mentioned tradition or wins.

Ceetar wrote: ... which you have yet to actually refute and I can't even tell if you're trying to refute it.

Well, I don't know what to say. If you don't understand what I've written, you can point out what you don't understand and ask me to clarify, but man, I really think I write clearly.

Ceetar wrote: Nothing I wrote was even addressing you specifically until you commented so I'm not really sure what I'm pressing upon you.

Awesome. That stuff about tradition and awarding pitchers wins was a characterization of no one's argument. Excellent.

[Fman99]

Frayed Knot wrote: I think he'll be so fine that he'll blow my mind.

[Guest d'Kong76]

2018 National League Manager of the Year

[Centerfield]

I think I'll really tire of hearing how awesome he is before April is out. I'm guessing that the man is considerably smarter than Terry Collins, but I'm not sure I will like him more. Maybe that says something about Collins. For a guy I didn't think was a very good manager, I really liked Terry more than he probably deserved.

I know it's kind of stupid, but I'm pretty down on Mickey for the way he handled the Trump Jr. thing. Regardless of his politics, I feel like the right thing to do would have been:

1. When Junior shows up, show him the door. Respectfully. Hey Don, it's nice to meet you, but this is a team building exercise, and we'd like to keep it teammates only.

2. And if Junior sticks around, tell his boys, no one mentions this, no pictures, and absolutely no social media. Recognize that Junior is more than just a political figure, and understand how this could be perceived. Drive that message home. Check with the black/Latino players and make sure that they understand that Junior was asked to leave.

3. When it hits the media, give it the gravity it deserves. Recognize that a large portion of the US (and the majority of the fan base) sees him and his family as standing for bigotry and hate. Come out strong and say we recognize these emotions run deep, that this is about more than just politics, and that his appearance at the fishing trip should not be meant to condone or reject any views that the Trumps stand for. Say that you've discussed this matter with the black and Latino players, and make sure that the media is aware that this situation was handled correctly.

Mickey did none of this. And so in my book, he's fucked up three times in one incident.

[Frayed Knot]

My opinions of Mickey C. will turn on a lot of things but none of them are going to have anything to do with little Donny Jr photobombing the end of fishing trip.

[Centerfield]

YMMV.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Mickey talks to the Post about some of his in-game strategies:

https://nypost.com/2018/03/03/pitcher-batting-8th-mets-manager-reveals-his-in-game-strategies/

[Edgy MD]

“His spot comes up and there is a man on first, I am going to have him bunt. Get him off his feet. Get the bunt down, jog to first, get back in the dugout and go back out and pitch the seventh. “I don’t want him hitting a double. If we are winning 3-1 and he’s throwing a gem, I am not worried about him driving in runs. I want him to get the guy over, get him rest and go pitch the seventh and save one of our bullpen arms. It will look inconsistent, but there will be a reason behind it.”

I don't know. I kind of like that double. Bunting as a way of keeping your pitcher from getting winded seems ... sappy.

And it sure seems like we've seen our last complete game for a while.

[Ceetar]

Sounds like Mickey might be pro DH

[Guest d'Kong76]

I got some second-hand Francessa smoke this afternoon. I have to admit
he had a line that made me laugh out loud likening Mickey to Rich Kotite.

I'm not there yet, but it was pretty funny.

[bmfc1]

http://firemickey.com/
I like that "mistake" in the quote is misspelled.

[bmfc1]

You can be a lousy manager but don't talk down to New Yorkers:
"Yeah. So how it works in baseball, in the ninth inning or in any inning, you get a guy going and they call down when they’re ready."
Thanks for that.

[Edgy MD]

It struck me this morning that with regards to Mickey Callaway, the Triumvirate Council may have an advantage.

I don't know necessarily that he should be fired. But Mickey couldn't fire him. A GM fires a manager in his first year — a manager that he hired — that suggests that his judgment is clearly unreliable and he needs to go himself. So the manager endures as a sort of GM ass-coverage.

The Trimvirate has no such personal investment.

[metirish]

bmfc1 wrote: You can be a lousy manager but don't talk down to New Yorkers: "Yeah. So how it works in baseball, in the ninth inning or in any inning, you get a guy going and they call down when they’re ready." Thanks for that.

This was an incredible post game...he sounded very condescending and did himself no favors....Nelly Figs on SNY was livid , it made for great TV when they went back to Apple after Callaway spoke and they Figgy ripped into him...

[Benjamin Grimm]

I was quite impressed by Mickey during the months after he was hired, but fortunately, I provided the caveat that my opinion might change once the season was underway.

I didn't think it would, but it has. He really seems to be a guy who's in over his head. He may eventually settle in and be a very good manager, but I think he may be an example of the Peter Principle. He got promoted from a job he was good at (Cleveland pitching coach) to a job for which he's not all that qualified.

[smg58]

I think the biggest problem ultimately has been injuries. Alderson tried something outside-the-box with the bullpen that backfired spectacularly, and that's on him, but it's not on him that everybody he brought in this offseason (plus Ramos, and most of the rest of the team too while we're at it) has spent significant time on the DL. Calloway has had to manage with what he's been given. Yes, Gsellman is on pace for close to 100 innings and he's already showing signs of fatigue, but what are your options? Swarzak hasn't looked right since he returned from the DL, and neither has Familia. That's not on the GM or the manager. On the plus side, Calloway's handling of Matz and Wheeler is starting to pay some nice dividends, and whoever is here next year will benefit from that. Could he afford to be less rigid about when pitchers come in and for how long? Yes, although he's starting to be more flexible. He hasn't seemed willing to challenge his hitters to adapt, and that's a concern, but it's also a mistake a rookie manager can learn from. I'm not ditching him just yet.

Of course, it is perfectly reasonable to ask if the Mets' relentless health issues are more than just bad luck. If we are doing something that other teams don't with regards to training, it has to stop.

[Guest 41Forever]

Mickey has a three-year contract with a team option for a fourth. I can't see them pulling the trigger on removing him and paying him for the next two and a half years unless they are 100 percent sure that he's the problem. I don't think that's the case.

I think there's a line between growing pains for a rookie manager and someone who is overwhelmed and in way over his head. I like to think Mickey is closer to the former.

[Benjamin Grimm]

He seems closer to the latter, but I agree he deserves more time. He should certainly finish out the season. A new GM might insist on the right to hire his own guy, and he may be granted that right.

[Vic Sage]

i'm not a callaway apologist, but i don't think he's a particularly significant reason why this team sucks. Managers rarely are, in my view. The difference between a good manager and a bad manager is maybe six games a year. So if your a borderline playoff team, it matters. if your the losingest team in the league, it doesn't.

The fact is that just about every free agent signing by Alderson has gone sideways; some forseeably, some less so. But injuries and under-performance are always forseeable risks when you bring in older guys who've had injuries and years of under-performance. Are we shocked that the strategy of pursuing mid- and lower-tier FAs hasn't panned out?

And if we blame Callaway for Rosario's lack of development, does he get the credit for Nimmo's development? Or was Rosario just brought up too soon, with insufficent time to develop basics skills before being rushed to the majors? And who put him on the roster this quick? Ditto for Dom Smith. Or maybe neither of these overhyped prospects is actually that good? Is that Callaway's fault too?

We knew the bullpen was the weakspot on this team since ST, so are we shocked they're as bad as we were afraid they'd be? And is Callaway's BP usage the reason Swarsak, Blevins and Familia have sucked all year or that Ramos is on the DL? Yeah, he's overused Gsellman, but really what choice did he have? He was trying to get a fragile starting staff back into shape (and he has, for the most part) by limiting their innings, so he used the BP early and often. And if there were enough reliable arms out there, it wouldn't have mattered. But there aren't. Now he's going to ride Peterson until he stops going well, and then look around for somebody (ANYBODY) who can get people out in the late innings.

So yeah, maybe Callaway is in over his head, maybe not. I'm not in that clubhouse. It sure looks like the vets are sleepwalking and the kids are confused (except Nimmo, who has an inner fire to drive him), so it wouldnt surprise me if Callaway got booted by a new GM after the season. But i think the real culprit for this season is the one who built the team. And if Sandy was limited in his building by unreasonable parameters or interference by the Wilpons, then the buck stops there.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm just blown away by how fast and decisively Mickey has gone from Manager of the Year to Most Likely to Be Fired.

On the one hand he's Sandy's chosen pick and almost as fast he's low-key exasperated with the players Sandy has gotten him.

He comes off as thoughtful and organized but lost a game to the Reds batting out of order, and the play generally has been sloppy and the in-game stuff iffy.

.Kernan of all people today wrote about how the Mets don;t have a kind of organization approach to things like bunting. I thought we'd had that much going back to Peterson and his "CEO of Pitching" approach; and there was much talk about Sandy preferring that aggressive attacking your pitch kinda thing they always referenced with Duda. But it could be those things went away when they didn;t bother to rehire anyone to tale Depodesta's role until Fred decided he wanted his man Omar back. That of course was looked at very supiciously by the existing FO and its surely at some level fouling up whatever succession plan there was.

[G-Fafif]

I remember reading a magazine article about the Mets GM insisting there would soon be organizational uniformity when it came to executing fundamentals throughout the organization.

The magazine was Inside Sports, the GM was Frank Cashen and the year was 1981. I've yet to see it happen.

[MFS62]

G-Fafif wrote: I remember reading a magazine article about the Mets GM insisting there would soon be organizational uniformity when it came to executing fundamentals throughout the organization. The magazine was Inside Sports, the GM was Frank Cashen and the year was 1981. I've yet to see it happen.

He brought the Orioles' organizational "playbook" with him, and when he arrived fundamentals were taught uniformly at all levels of the organization. They included everything from where to stand on cutoff plays to defending/ performing a double steal, bunting, hitting behind the runner, etc..
You know - baseball. And when players were promoted they didn't have to learn new systems. They fit right in.
I saw it happen then, players brought up through the organization did them. And when players were brought in from other organizations, they had the baseball IQs to fit in.
But it seems when Cashen left, they threw out the baby with the bath water.
That's when we stopped seeing them.
Later

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I have not been overly impressed with Mickey's in game decision making, but I don't think he is the main problem with this team. He simply doesn't have enough talent to compete with the top teams. The problem is that this team has not been able to consistently compete with the lower level teams. Certainly, Cespedes and Syndegaard being out has hurt, but even with them I don't believe this team is a legitimate playoff contender. Injuries are part of the game, the good teams generally find a way to get through them.

There are too many low average/low OBP hitters in the line up. There is too little team speed. This team can't string together hits to produce runs and they lack the speed to pressure defenses and manufacture runs. The bullpen is too thin and overworked (partly due to Mickey's no third time through the order philosophy).

[smg58]

I think Moneyball has come full circle: the undervalued commodities right now are batting average, speed, small ball, and to some extent defense. Teams are starting to adjust to the all-or-nothing swingers. You pitch to keep the ball in the yard and put all the defense on one side of the field. The Todd Fraziers and Jay Bruces of the league might walk more as a result, but if you keep their averages below .250 and limit them to 20 homers instead of 30, you take it.

I was under the impression that the whole bit about the third time through the lineup and going at least some of the time with eight relievers was Alderson's strategy from even before Calloway was hired. You could justify some of it on the grounds that the Mets had multiple starters returning from injuries, and like I said before, whoever runs the team next year will reap the benefits of how Matz and Wheeler were handled early on. But Alderson addressed an issue that required quality with quantity, and the results speak for themselves.

[Lefty Specialist]

I don't think Mickey's the main problem with this team, but he IS one of the problems. I think he's been a little overmatched. He ditched the baseball lifer, old-school guy and went with the new-age guy, and the results are depressingly familiar.

He probably should have gotten some experience managing in the minors first because some of his mistakes are of the first-timer kind, like the lineup screwup.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Lefty Specialist wrote: I don't think Mickey's the main problem with this team, but he IS one of the problems.

I agree. Things may change, but as of now, he doesn't appear to be part of the solution.

[Edgy MD]

smg58 wrote: I think Moneyball has come full circle: the undervalued commodities right now are batting average, speed, small ball, and to some extent defense.

I think there's a lot to this. But I think there's also more lip service paid to OBP than actual commitment to it.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm just blown away by how fast and decisively Mickey has gone from Manager of the Year to Most Likely to Be Fired. On the one hand he's Sandy's chosen pick and almost as fast he's low-key exasperated with the players Sandy has gotten him. He comes off as thoughtful and organized but lost a game to the Reds batting out of order, and the play generally has been sloppy and the in-game stuff iffy. .Kernan of all people today wrote about how the Mets don;t have a kind of organization approach to things like bunting. I thought we'd had that much going back to Peterson and his "CEO of Pitching" approach; and there was much talk about Sandy preferring that aggressive attacking your pitch kinda thing they always referenced with Duda. But it could be those things went away when they didn;t bother to rehire anyone to tale Depodesta's role until Fred decided he wanted his man Omar back. That of course was looked at very supiciously by the existing FO and its surely at some level fouling up whatever succession plan there was.

The thing that makes Kernan's article iffy about the 'organizational approach' stuff is he talked to an acquired guy about something along the lines of task lists like they didn't have it, but I _know_ there were pitchers, I think it might've been Flexen, who said the opposite. He didn't talk about it like it was some "omg, look at this very regimented thing the new guys are doing!" thing. just business as usual.

I have no problem with Dominic Smith not knowing how to bunt. You'll notice that in his "back to basics" description of the Mets pre-game workouts, he Kernan doesn't mention Smith bunting either. Writers pull at a thread and everything seems connected, but I suspect they've been doing this stuff all season and it's only now been worth mentioning as it pertains to a point someone's trying to make.

In any event, I like Callaway and hope they don't fire him.