Hall of Fame ballot

[nymr83]

Important Question: When will baseball reference replace that ugly photo of Beltran in a Yankees jersey?

[metsmarathon]

good god. just looking at the CF JAWS leaders...

among players not yet in the hall of fame, carlos beltran is the number 1 CF (57.3 JAWS), followed by criminally undervoted kenny lofton (55.7), and andruw jones (54.6). then come jim edmonds (51.4), willie davis (49.6), jim wynn (49.4), and some guy named after a fish (48.5 in only 6 seasons).

that's fairly outstanding.

[nymr83]

Andruw Jones is a tough one! Edmonds feels right to me, but aren't they the same player? Jones fell off the map early but you forget he was playing CF at age 19! Edmonds first full season wast until 24.

[Edgy MD]

I tend to think Jones was such an impressive defender in his early 20s that folks didn't appreciate that he faded early and kept winning Gold Gloves well after he deserved them. Of course, I don't know how that factors into JAWS. I don't know how much I suspect about his power being genuine, but it sure disappeared after mandatory testing was installed.

Funny how the top three centerfielders on the outside all became Yankees after their legs were shot.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I tend to think Jones was such an impressive defender in his early 20s that folks didn't appreciate that he faded early and kept winning Gold Gloves well after he deserved them. Of course, I don't know how that factors into JAWS. I don't know how much I suspect about his power being genuine, but it sure disappeared after mandatory testing was installed. Funny how the top three centerfielders on the outside all became Yankees after their legs were shot.

I don't think the concept of padding HR numbers in Yankee Stadium is lost on them.

[Valadius]

Kenny Lofton may be the poster child for how ridiculous the 10-man limit is. There have been over 10 people that I would consider to be Hall of Famers on the ballot going back half a decade, largely because of the steroid-era glut. You shouldn't be forced to pick only 10. If you believe that they belong, you should be able to vote for them. That a player of his caliber only got one year of consideration is almost criminal.

[Edgy MD]

Lou Whitaker is my pick for the greatest one-and-done player. I'm not sure if you'd conclude there was a glut on the ballot that year, but two guys went in, both in their first year of eligibility, and five other eventual Hall-of-Famers appeared on the ballot.

[Valadius]

Over a quarter of the vote is in.

Bagwell - 93.0%
Raines - 91.2%
Pudge - 83.3%
Vlad - 76.3%
Hoffman - 74.6%
Bonds - 70.2%
Clemens - 70.2%
Edgar - 66.7%
Mussina - 60.5%
Schilling - 50.9%
Manny - 32.5%
Smith - 30.7%
Walker - 23.7%
McGriff - 13.2%
Sosa - 12.3%
Kent - 11.4%
Sheffield - 11.4%
Wagner - 11.4%
Posada - 5.3%

[Edgy MD]

Wow, I guess there's a lot more gap in between Hoffman's career and Wagner's than I can see.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Valadius wrote: Over a quarter of the vote is in. Bagwell - 93.0% Raines - 91.2% Pudge - 83.3% Vlad - 76.3% Hoffman - 74.6% Bonds - 70.2% Clemens - 70.2% Edgar - 66.7% Mussina - 60.5% Schilling - 50.9% Manny - 32.5% Smith - 30.7% Walker - 23.7% McGriff - 13.2% Sosa - 12.3% Kent - 11.4% Sheffield - 11.4% Wagner - 11.4% Posada - 5.3%

I'm surprised that Vlad is so low.

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: Wow, I guess there's a lot more gap in between Hoffman's career and Wagner's than I can see.

the gap in ability goes in the other direction, though Hoffman certainly lasted longer (not as much as i thought, though the innings gap ~180 is significant for relievers)

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Wagner was far more dominant at his peak (edging Mariano in spots) AND overall. Smith whips Hoffman in counting stats, except for the one.

So, yeah, this is the reliever equivalent of a "300 win club" vote-- Sutton over Blyleven, eg. Hell, it's almost Sutton over Koufax.

[Edgy MD]

Notable that Clemens and Bonds have the exact same totals, as the case for ("no doubter on the stats") and against ("but he used") is exactly the same.

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: Notable that Clemens and Bonds have the exact same totals, as the case for ("no doubter on the stats") and against ("but he used") is exactly the same.

yeah, any other case against them would need to be non-baseball - Bonds was a dick to reporters but generally considered to be well-liked and kind to fans. Clemens was supposedly a jerk to everyone.

[Valadius]

Mike Puma released his ballot this morning.

Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
Martinez
Mussina
Raines
Rodriguez
Schilling
Wagner

Those are new votes for Bagwell, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Schilling, and Wagner from last year. Guerrero and Rodriguez are newcomers to the ballot, of course, which puts Puma in the strange position of having Bonds and Clemens be his only holdovers from last year's ballot.

[Edgy MD]

Way to wake up for Raines, Mike.

Interesting that he's in the minority placing Robert Wagner over Dustin Hoffman.

[Vic Sage]

i had almost same ballot as Puma, except that i included Manny over Wagner.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

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Edited January 4, 2017 by Guest

[nymr83]

The Posada part is puke-inducing, but he makes this good point on the difference between Bonds and Clemens:

2) on the integrity/character issue, Bonds finishes above Clemens, at least for me. Clemens was accused of lying under oath with no regard to his trainer or his trainer’s life, and he and his well-paid lawyers threw dirt all over the guy who had no choice but to tell the truth to investigators

I really don't remember if Bonds did anything similar, but if not its fair to say you voted for Bonds and not Clemens because Clemens dragged people down with him in a d-bag manner.

[Edgy MD]

I agree with him that the less-than-5% rule is arbitrary and has destroyed more than a few worthy candidacies before anybody really thought about them.

I find the case for Posada compelling. What hurts his case badly is Joe Girardi—for starting ahead of him at the beginning of his career and for benching him at the end.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: I really don't remember if Bonds did anything similar, but if not its fair to say you voted for Bonds and not Clemens because Clemens dragged people down with him in a d-bag manner.

Barry's trainer/lackey [Greg(?) Anderson] went to prison for his refusal to tattle on his buddy - so one could argue that both stars put a big chunk of the burden on their hand-picked little guy so that they could slide.
One suspects - and HOPES -- that he was handsomely compensated by Bonds for his silence but of course we'll find Jimmy Hoffa before we'll find a paper trail on that one.

[Edgy MD]

Also notable is that the case against Rodriguez with regard to being a user is stronger than the case against Bagwell, and possibly stronger than the case against Piazza, but he's looking like a first-ballot guy.

Attitudes are changing.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

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Edited January 6, 2017 by Guest

[seawolf17]

I'm coming around on the whole thing. Despite my vicious hatred for Roger Clemens, I feel like you have to put him in there. Bonds too. It's just not a representative Hall without them.

[Edgy MD]

One problem is that, if you accept the commonly accepted timelines with regard to usage for the two guys, Bonds was already more or less the best hitter in baseball when he began using in the 1998-1999 offseason in response to the breathless coverage of the McGwire-Sosa race. Clemens, on the other hand, was sliding toward Palookaville when he began using before joining the Blue Jays and reviving his career.

The ten most similar players to Clemens at that juncture (Hall of Famers noted with an *) were:

[*:2rotin22]Dwight Gooden[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Bob Welch[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]CC Sabathia[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Tom Glavine*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Bob Gibson*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Tom Seaver*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Lon Warneke[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Greg Maddux*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Justin Verlander[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Jack Morris[/*:m:2rotin22][/list:o:2rotin22]
If you think of his most likely career track without the dope being something like an average of these players, it's still an open question what kind of career he'd've ended up with. Four Hall of Famers are on that list and two guys still active. And I'm not saying some of those latter-day players didn't use.

Now, Barry Bonds thru 33 gives us a more starlit, albeit messier, set:


[*:2rotin22]Frank Robinson*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Ken Griffey*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Duke Snider*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Vladimir Guerrero[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Juan Gonzalez[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Jeff Bagwell[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Jim Thome[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Mickey Mantle*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Willie Mays*[/*:m:2rotin22]
[*:2rotin22]Manny Ramirez*[/*:m:2rotin22][/list:o:2rotin22]

Five Hall-of Famers, plus a couple of guys who should skate in. A lot of other drug-clouded guys, but this could be eight or nine guys in a few years, maybe 10 eventually.

Anyhow, that's one way to distinguish them, if you're of a mind to distinguish them.

[seawolf17]

So we should keep Clemens out? Okay. SORRY SUCKA

[nymr83]

seawolf17 wrote: So we should keep Clemens out? Okay. SORRY SUCKA

Clemens should be kept out until he tells the truth about the bat shard incident

[Valadius]

Murray Chass submitted a blank ballot, because he's a gigantic douche.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

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Edited January 8, 2017 by Guest

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Murray Chass submitted a blank ballot, because he's a gigantic douche.

Absolutely unacceptable.

Thank you, Mr. Chass. We're going to strip you of your vote and give it to someone who gives a damn.

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/01/08/murray-chass-intentionally-turned-in-a-blank-hall-of-fame-ballot/

Chass' column:

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=10495

Edited January 8, 2017 by Guest