TWi(NL-WC)B Notes: This Week in (NL-WC) Baseball

[HahnSolo]

Frayed Knot wrote: Apparently those advertising signs, above and also slightly in back of the regular wall, are in play and it's the railing behind both of them that determines HR/not and also in-play/not so that hit was a live ball. But, yeah, having the losing manager chase the umps down the runway in a case like while the home team dog-piles at the plate and the cameras and microphones are coming out to do post-game interviews is one of many problems that apparently no one anticipated when they slapped together this replay rule.

Ok I stand corrected on the signs. That's what I get for believing Harold Reynolds on MLB network.

[Frayed Knot]

At least that's what I was hearing [u:347hnxgy]from the Cincy announcers[/u:347hnxgy] who claimed that's what they read about the ground rules in Busch III, although it's not like they have local inside knowledge either.
The weird part is that those ad signs are not only above the wall but slightly set back as well so there's a little 'shelf' between the two where the ball could get stuck so maybe it's a GR double if it sits up there and doesn't come down but that's obviously not what this ball did. In all it seems like a screwed up design if nothing else.


2-zip Rockies in the 3rd

[Frayed Knot]

And now it's becoming apparent that the ground rules say that a ball hitting where that one hit should have been a GR double but that the Reds -- due to crowd noise making them unable to hear their dugout phone
they claim -- didn't notify the umps quickly enough after the play that they were thinking of challenging.
To which I respond: NOW we're enforcing a time rule on challenges?!?!

[Zvon]

And now it's becoming apparent that the ground rules say that a ball hitting where that one hit should have been a GR double but that the Reds -- due to crowd noise making them unable to hear their dugout phone they claim -- didn't notify the umps quickly enough after the play that they were thinking of challenging. To which I respond: NOW we're enforcing a time rule on challenges?!?!

haha, they only enforce it for the last out. How about how the umps call their own huddles when they "want to get it right". This was huddleworthy. Something really stinks about this.

2-2 in SF after 4.

[Centerfield]

Giants take the lead.

This is karma for starting that post season roster thread.

[nymr83]

HahnSolo wrote: How do the umps just leave the field leaving the Reds with no ability to challenge?

This just in from Reds' legend John Franco: "The Umps told me they had a plane to catch"!

[nymr83]

bad job by the reds - its a game winning run if it stands, why is the manager waiting for anyone to tell him to challenge? just challenge!

[Zvon]

Giants won.



But we got this.
We're gonna turn The Bandbox into The Launching Grounds.

[G-Fafif]

MLB Network covered the hell out of the ground rule double that wasn't called a ground rule double, directing their Ballpark Cam to show the advertising signs over the LF wall are decidedly not in play and relaying Cardinal GM John Mozeliak's confirmation of same.

Extraordinarily and unnecessarily muddled situation for the video age. This is the sort of knotty problem you'd expect to read about in Baseball Digest from before replay was an option. Bad job by everybody concerned...except Yadier Molina, natch.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: bad job by the reds - its a game winning run if it stands, why is the manager waiting for anyone to tell him to challenge? just challenge!

Because I think managers have become too dependent on their 'eye in the sky' to tell them which calls deserve challenging. In fact I suspect it's probably team policy in most cases that the managers aren't even the ones to be making the call as evidenced by a call the Mets failed to challenge a few weeks back. Sandy wound up blowing his stack over that one, not at Terry but rather at the breakdown somewhere in the communication chain that never informed Terry that he should.

I wasn't even aware until last night that there was this '10/30' rule actually written into the book -- 10 seconds for the bench to notify the umps that they're thinking of challenging and then 30 seconds (30 more, or 20 on top of the original 10??) to actually request that they go to the headphones -- but apparently that doesn't even apply on 'game-ending' plays when the rule says that the bench needs to appeal immediately.
[Reds' mgr] Price's argument is that if four umps couldn't tell from their stations that the ball hit beyond the fence how are their bench supposed to know from nearly 400 feet away while in their subterranean dugout without getting help from upstairs and that the crowd noise made it impossible to know that their spies were trying to call them. By the time he did get word the umps were already halfway down the tunnel and telling him that his 10 seconds had expired.

[HahnSolo]

Nymr83 wrote: bad job by the reds - its a game winning run if it stands, why is the manager waiting for anyone to tell him to challenge? just challenge!

The umps were clearing the field as the Cards were charging it. I mean, maybe get on the Reds for not acting quick enough or for someone on the field to say to one of the umps "hey that was a ground rule double", but damn it's a walk off run. The umps have to make sure the run was legit. If not for this, why is there replay?

I'd hate to go to the NFL "all scoring plays are reviewed" but maybe they need to do something about walk off runs being reviewed.

[Lefty Specialist]

They just got to take care of their own business. Kick Phillie butt and move on.

[Centerfield]

Frayed Knot wrote: Nymr83 wrote: bad job by the reds - its a game winning run if it stands, why is the manager waiting for anyone to tell him to challenge? just challenge! Because I think managers have become too dependent on their 'eye in the sky' to tell them which calls deserve challenging. In fact I suspect it's probably team policy in most cases that the managers aren't even the ones to be making the call as evidenced by a call the Mets failed to challenge a few weeks back. Sandy wound up blowing his stack over that one, not at Terry but rather at the breakdown somewhere in the communication chain that never informed Terry that he should. I wasn't even aware until last night that there was this '10/30' rule actually written into the book -- 10 seconds for the bench to notify the umps that they're thinking of challenging and then 30 seconds (30 more, or 20 on top of the original 10??) to actually request that they go to the headphones -- but apparently that doesn't even apply on 'game-ending' plays when the rule says that the bench needs to appeal immediately. [Reds' mgr] Price's argument is that if four umps couldn't tell from their stations that the ball hit beyond the fence how are their bench supposed to know from nearly 400 feet away while in their subterranean dugout without getting help from upstairs and that the crowd noise made it impossible to know that their spies were trying to call them. By the time he did get word the umps were already halfway down the tunnel and telling him that his 10 seconds had expired.

We've touched on this before. If it's a game ending play, just fucking challenge.

How hard is that? Sometimes I feel like I could walk in and manage better than half these morons.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying that that's the way things have evolved. It's like football coaches who can't 'go for two' unless the card in their hand with the game/score situation tells them that they can and if the card says they should they won't ever not do it. In the interest of not getting things wrong and looking foolish afterward, teams have pre-decided how their decisions are going to be made.


Personally, I hate the whole 'eye in the sky' stuff to begin with. Not just because it slows the game up and takes the decision-making off the field, but it's that micro-managing stuff which is what led to calls being challenged because: on a pop-up slide to 2nd, it appears that the runner's cleats came off the bag by a 1/4 inch for a 1/4 second and it looks as if the laces of the fielder's glove was making contact with the sleeve of the runner's jersey during that 1/4 second and therefore the call needs to be over-turned following 30 seconds of dugout to booth consultation followed by three more minutes of umpire to bunker cross-chatter; situations that absolutely no one was in favor of reversing when they argued for replay on the grounds that "getting it right" is the holy grail that should over-ride all other concerns.

I suspect that MLB was fearful of a situation where the home team could set up some sort of relay system that would give them an advantage in cases of close calls and therefore decided that a standardized phone system with contact upstairs was needed to even things out. But, as many 'fixes' often do it's caused at least as many problems as it's solved.

[HahnSolo]

I would think in a situation like this maybe MLB needs something like the NHL goal review. Take it out of the managers/umps hands and let it go to the control center in NYC.

The problem with that is you can't do it on every play. The NFL does it for every scoring play, but even then for baseball it would be too much. Maybe institute it for game-ending plays only?

[Frayed Knot]

Once a game is past the 6th inning the umps have to power to go to replay either on their own or via prodding/pleading from a manager, even one who has already burned his challenges. So they clearly could have done this on their own without altering the existing rules.
Not sure that I totally buy the quote (above somewhere) that John Franco says the umps said they had a plane to catch but, even if that story is embellished, the crew in blue certainly couldn't have been very motivated to stick around and quite possibly turn that into an extra-inning affair especially seeing as how it had been raining much of the night as it was and so I'm sure all involved were already cold, wet, and grumpy.

[Edgy MD]

Joe Maddon is supposedly getting heat from his players for his liberal substitution policy as the season winds down. Probably a tempest in a teapot, but little dissent can't be anything but good from the Mets' perspective.

Amazin' that the Cubs and Bucs have given us our first tie in captivity since 2005.

[Benjamin Grimm]

FoxSports.com wrote: Pittsburgh is 78-80 and needs to sweep its season-ending three-game series at St. Louis that starts Friday night in order to extend its streak of winning seasons to four. The Pirates had 20 straight losing seasons from 1993-2012, the record for major North American team professional sports.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

So, the Cardinals' maintenance issues help them maintain their proximity to our asses?

Last night's Reds-Cards kerfuffle may have had an additional, infrastructural contributing factor.

[G-Fafif]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: So, the Cardinals' maintenance issues help them maintain their proximity to our asses? Last night's Reds-Cards kerfuffle may have had an additional, infrastructural contributing factor.

What a screwy system and even screwier circumstances.

[Frayed Knot]

btw, ALL games this weekend are free on MLB.tv if you want to use an 'alternate device' to monitor out of town games while watching the Mets.

[Frayed Knot]

SF v LA just getting started.
Bumgarner vs Rich Hill. Hill actually has the better stats for the year, particularly lately.

Vin Scully on the mike and it's on MLBN

[metirish]

I'm watching

[metirish]

Dodgers up 2 already , pop flying Bumgarner to death

[Zvon]

Just switching over. I wanted to see the Holliday HR.
I think Wilmer changed the game. Ever since his non-trade there is crying in baseball.

Giants are trying get back into it down 2-0 in the 1st. Gorky leads off with a double.

[metirish]

Tied at 2, this could be a long night

[Zvon]

This game has tackles and shit.

[Centerfield]

Join us guys and tune in on MLB network. Our last Vin.

[Zvon]

I like how they didn't show the kids running around the field. And we still got the classic call from Scully. Those not watching, Pagan tackled one of the kids in the outfield. Or so I heard.

[Edgy MD]

Puig comes up and "like a blare of trumpets, the boos go out into the night."

This Scully guy ain't playing around.