The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

[Frayed Knot]

Zvon wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him. In the case of Flores I think it's a pretty fair measuring stick. I mean, what he's there for. To hit homers. If he can't do it, and he can't field at least average, he shouldn't be there in the first place. But Sandy made his choice. I'm for giving Flores the time he needs to succeed. And that would be early July.

I don't understand a single bit of the logic being used here.
Not the initial part behind this arbitrary linkage between HRs & errors; not why you seem to think that it should apply to Flores in particular; not how he, presumably more than others, was brought it "to hit homers"; not why his inevitable replacement, almost certainly to fall short of the same standard, wouldn't be subject to the same rigor.

[Centerfield]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Errors committed at SS this season: Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?! Fifty plus. I know the A's have always been on the forefront in terms of seminal ideas, but this one may blow up right in their face. I mean, fifty plus errors, if it comes to it, can leave anyone feeling a little testy. When you're thinking about a guy who's more comfortable with his bat in hand than putting a glove on it, you have to figure on a few dribblers to trickle past every now and again. But, yeah, that sort of leakage is just sloppy. You've got to handle your balls better than that, son, or you'll be stuck sitting around with a squeeze bottle and a towel.

Thank god there is at least one other juvenile on this forum.

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him. In the case of Flores I think it's a pretty fair measuring stick. I mean, what he's there for. To hit homers. If he can't do it, and he can't field at least average, he shouldn't be there in the first place. But Sandy made his choice. I'm for giving Flores the time he needs to succeed. And that would be early July. I don't understand a single bit of the logic being used here. Not the initial part behind this arbitrary linkage between HRs & errors; not why you seem to think that it should apply to Flores in particular; not how he, presumably more than others, was brought it "to hit homers"; not why his inevitable replacement, almost certainly to fall short of the same standard, wouldn't be subject to the same rigor.

It's all there in my comments, my reasoning. He's got a job to do. In light of what the team says they expect from him, and in turn what I expect from him, he needs to do certain things to be acceptable as a shortstop. Don't look for logic here. This is a fan who thinks logically Flores should not be our shortstop. But the team went that way. I'll support the decision up to a certain point, with my own specifics in mind. Think of it as a "fan thing" if you want. I'm just stating my views.

Honestly, following baseball, I do not hold all players to the same standard. It's usually what they are supposed to be doing as opposed to what they are actually doing. Expectations.

[Edgy MD]

You won't find any non-Mets on my shit list because I don't give a shit about non-Mets. I don't care one iota about shortstops playing for other teams and what they have to do.

I agree! Let's keep this in the family.

1962: Chacon � 22 errors at shortstop, 2 HR. Shit list.

1963: Moran � 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. List of shit.

1964: McMillan � 14 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Name written in shit on a list made of paper,

1965: McMillan � 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Name written in ink on the a list made of shit.

1966: Bressoud � 16 errors at shortstop, 8 HR. Don't sit next to that guy making a list. Trust me.

1967: Harrelson � 32 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. You give shit a bad name.

1968: Harrelson � 15 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Lista de mierda.

1969: Harrelson � 19 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Liste de merde.

1970: Harrelson � 21 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. List stercore.

1971: Harrelson � 16 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Condemned by the Federal Bureau of Lists.

1972: Harrelson � 16 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Even his mother shitlisted him after this season.

1973: Harrelson � 10 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Why even bother writing? List typed up this season with a shit-covered ribbon.

1974: Harrelson � 17 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. It's like a shitty nocturne written by Liszt.

1975: Phillips � 31 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Prospect watchers raved about his shit list potential.

1976: Harrelson � 20 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. You say shit. I say list. Together? Shit list!

1977: Harrelson � 6 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Spray paint it on the wall if you want. It's still a shit list.

1978: Foli � 18 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Crazy Horse made the Crazy Horseshit List this season.

1979: Taveras � 25 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Mets/Battlestar Gallactica fans put him on their "Feldercarb List."

1980: Taveras � 25 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. You could pre-print your shitlist at the beginning of the year with Frank's name already on it.

1981: Taveras � 24 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. It's a stone cold fact that you can't bunt your way off the shit list.

1982: Gardenhire � 29 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Such shit list potential this guy lost to injuries.

1983: Oquendo � 21 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Perhaps our youngest-ever shit list member.

1984: Oquendo � 7 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. I had a nightmare this guy was on the shit list. I woke up and IT WAS TRUE.

1985: Santana � 25 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. By day, New York Mets shorstop. By night, denizen of The List.

1986: Santana � 16 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Raffy actually made Schindler's Shit List this year, which I didn't even know was a thing.

1987: Santana � 17 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. Year of the Homer. Still, not a year without a shit list. No sir.

1988: Elster � 13 errors at shortstop, 9 HR. One of the great efforts in avoiding the shit list. It failed, of course.

1989: Elster � 15 errors at shortstop, 10 HR. Set a defensive record AND hit for power? You're still on the list, buddy.

1990: Elster � 17 errors at shortstop, 9 HR. Here, write your own name. I've got a cramp.

1991: Elster � 14 errors at shortstop, 6 HR. The neighbors don't talk to you anymore. They just refer to you to third parties as "The guy with all those lists."

1992: Schofield � 7 errors at shortstop, 4 HR. This one-year Met had ONE chance to make the list. He came close to missing but he WOULD NOT DISAPPOINT.

1993: Bogar � 8 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. A Ron Gardenhire for a new generation. Always trying to get healthy enough to make ONE MORE LIST. But he made one, and that's something.

1994: Vizcaino � 13 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. The shit list became computerized this year. On a shitty computer.

1995: Vizcaino � 10 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Phillip Glass set the shit list to music this year, and included a Vizcaino Overture.

1996: Ord��ez � 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Shit list.

1997: Ord��ez � 9 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Among other records, Rey set the standard for most internal punctuation in a name on the shit list.

1998: Ord��ez � 17 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Fran Healy said Rey's secret was that he went into the season CAHNFIDENT that he'd be on the shit list.

1999: Ord��ez � 4 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. A gilded year for infield defense. And the gold was wrapped in a list of PURE SHIT

2000: Bordick � errors at shortstop, HR. Sort of a Rey Ord��ez shit list interregnum. Get it? InterREYgnum. HA! HA! HA! HA!

2001: Ord��ez � 12 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Shit list comeback of the year.

2002: Ord��ez � 19 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Rey had his own shit list composed of Met fans. Turnabout is fair play!

2003: Reyes � 9 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. Copies of his rookie shit list are going for a pretty penny on eBay.

2004: Matsui � 23 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. ????????

2005: Reyes � 18 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. Nobody made out a shit list like Willie Randolph. It was like calligraphy.

2006: Reyes � 17 errors at shortstop, 19 HR. OMYGAWD! A METS SHAWTZTOP HAS ESCAPED THE SHIT LIST!!!!

2007: Reyes � 12 errors at shortstop, 12 HR. A tie does NOT GET YOU OFF ZVON'S SHIT LIST, JOS�. You're back in the doghouse, man!

2008: Reyes � 17 errors at shortstop, 16 HR. YOU'RE FADING, MAN!

2009: Cora � 6 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Cora was the first Met to lead shorstops in games played while not hitting a homer in 16 years. It's like he made the shit list through early admission.

2010: Reyes � 15 errors at shortstop, 11 HR. Get rid of this stooge. Shit list veteran at this point.

2011: Reyes � 18 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. Batting titles don't make up for shit lists, Jos�.

2012: Tejada � 12 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. He's on the All-Time Shit List Short List

2013: Quintanilla � 8 errors at shortstop, 2 HR. Suckiness etched in stone. Stinky, stinky stone.

2014: Tejada � 9 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. And finally, unless Flores anti-rallies with his glove, Ruben could be the last in a long line of shit-listers for quite a while.

That's 53 years and 52 shit-listers. You, mein freund, have one impressively high standard.

[Zvon]

I love that list !!!

[Zvon]

I would not hold any of those shortstops to the same standards I hold Flores. Maybe Elster. I got on his case a bit back then. I also considered him a MUCH better SS than Flores in the field so maybe not.

Buddy Harrelson is one of my fav Mets SS of all time and I never expected him to hit more homers than make errors. It's all about expectations.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I like this list. Great list-making, Edge. I'd tinker with it some, though, to reflect that one HR does a lot more good than an error does harm. So a shortstop who has a HR to error ratio of, and I'm just wild-ass guessing here, about 60%, is probably an asset, at least based on just those two stats. Obviously, there's more to this.

Melvin Mora (2000): 6 HR's, 7 E's at SS = asset.

[Edgy MD]

Zvon wrote: It's all about expectations.

Well, I have another list. And mine is all about wins.

[ashie62]

I believe Flores will develop into a top tier SS. He's only 23, cmon.

[Zvon]

My expectations include winning, especially this season. If we aren't contending in September you'll hear plenty more of my illogical views.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I definitely don't believe that Flores is the longterm answer at shortstop, but he is far being my biggest concern regarding the 2015 Mets.

[Guest themetfairy]

themetfairy wrote:

I'm gonna make you love me!

[Zvon]

Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go?

Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak?

I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average.

He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer?

[MFS62]

Zvon wrote: Buddy Harrelson is one of my fav Mets SS of all time and I never expected him to hit more homers than make errors. It's all about expectations.

I still remember the Baseball Digest minor league/ rookie scouting issue in which Bud Harrelson was described as having "good power for a shortstop". Once I saw Bud play, I never trusted those reports again.

Later

[Edgy MD]

Don't ask Zvon about Wilmer Flores. Ask THIS Phillies phan:

Nick Nykiel ?@Nick_NyQuil24 2h2 hours ago Fuck Wilmer Flores and everything he stands for

My shit list has Troy Tulowitzki, Starlin Castro and Ian Desmond, who can collectively consume Wilmer's undergarments.

[nymr83]

It's a stone cold fact that you can't bunt your way off the shit list.

Edgy's list has me falling on the floor unable to stop laughing

How can anyone possibly be discussing Errors alone as a serious measure of defensive ability?

YOU SOUND LIKE A YANKEES FAN DEFENDING ST. JETER!!

[Frayed Knot]

Zvon wrote: Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go? Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak? I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average. He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer?

Or maybe -- just a wild suggestion here -- you can judge him on the totality of his game without resorting to the need to invent some sort of pass/fail threshold based solely on using a couple of completely unrelated stats.
And, while doing so, do keep in mind that he's a 23 y/o with less than a full season's worth of ML ABs to his name spread over parts of three seasons.

Also, while we're on the subject, your whole premise here seems to be hanging on two "facts" which I don't see as facts at all.

1) that he, more than most other players, deserves to have these arbitrary standards put on him because he's already cast in stone as a low-avg/high-power hitter.
But his minor league stats don't indicate anything like that (near .300 BA across 3,000 ABs but never as many as 20 HRs in a season) in fact the biggest question surrounding him as he came up concerned his power. Reports I read on him were, at best, mixed on how much he'd display which, when combined with the uncertainty about where he's fit on the field, is what kept him from the upper reaches of the prospect lists.

2) that the team has somehow "sold you on" him as a power hitter ... something I don't get at all.
They obviously know he's not twinkletoes out there but they're hoping that his offense will more than make up for whatever else he lacks. I don't remember a word specifically about his power although if they were depending on it it seems to have worked seeing a how he's leading all of baseball in HRs by a SS (tied w/Peralta though in 25 fewer ABs) and 4th in RBIs.

So how 'bout we see how his entire game, and the team's for that matter, all works out before jumping to conclusion by the AS break of his first full year based on nothing more than some arbitrary statistical coincidences?

[Edgy MD]

You want a list, then start it with Eric Campbell. He's our bat-first reserve infielder, but he's given so little to this lineup 100 plate appearances into his season that he has me looking closely at the likes of Casey McGehee and Alberto Callaspo.

I... don't like... Casey McGehee and Alberto Callaspo.

[Benjamin Grimm]

How far off is the return of Dilson Herrera?

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: Zvon wrote: Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go? Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak? I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average. He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer? Or maybe -- just a wild suggestion here -- you can judge him on the totality of his game without resorting to the need to invent some sort of pass/fail threshold based solely on using a couple of completely unrelated stats. And, while doing so, do keep in mind that he's a 23 y/o with less than a full season's worth of ML ABs to his name spread over parts of three seasons. Also, while we're on the subject, your whole premise here seems to be hanging on two "facts" which I don't see as facts at all. 1) that he, more than most other players, deserves to have these arbitrary standards put on him because he's already cast in stone as a low-avg/high-power hitter. But his minor league stats don't indicate anything like that (near .300 BA across 3,000 ABs but never as many as 20 HRs in a season) in fact the biggest question surrounding him as he came up concerned his power. Reports I read on him were, at best, mixed on how much he'd display which, when combined with the uncertainty about where he's fit on the field, is what kept him from the upper reaches of the prospect lists. 2) that the team has somehow "sold you on" him as a power hitter ... something I don't get at all. They obviously know he's not twinkletoes out there but they're hoping that his offense will more than make up for whatever else he lacks. I don't remember a word specifically about his power although if they were depending on it it seems to have worked seeing a how he's leading all of baseball in HRs by a SS (tied w/Peralta though in 25 fewer ABs) and 4th in RBIs. So how 'bout we see how his entire game, and the team's for that matter, all works out before jumping to conclusion by the AS break of his first full year based on nothing more than some arbitrary statistical coincidences?

Hey, I'm just a fan being a fan. Stop being a llort.

Did I use that right? Maybe I'm the llort. In that case I'll stop.

[ashie62]

What is a llort?

[Zvon]

Ashie62 wrote: What is a llort?

Lol. I'm not exactly sure it applies.
From another thread:

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: You don't know what a troll is? I mean, he is or isn't, but the definition is pretty clear by now. Yeah, I know what a troll is supposed to be. But what happens when someone you think is a troll writes the truth? When someone with, perhaps, an axe to grind, nevertheless writes something that's honest and accurate? And is there a word for something like a reverse troll? You know, like someone who goes to ridiculous, almost pathological delusional lengths just to post something positive on the topic on hand? Just to avoid or deny negative comments or criticism, no matter how deserved? Because if there isn't, there should be. How about llort? Like llama, but llort?

It really doesn't fit either of us in it's entirety. I just thought it would be savvy & suave (& funny) to start throwing that word around.

[Ceetar]

Ruben Tejada out-hitting him again.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

I think Flores gets some extra love because he's become one of the few power sources that we have. Heck, he's been leading the team until Duda caught fire. If he was surrounded by 5 guys putting balls in the seats, you'd demand the better defense because we don't need the power.

[Edgy MD]

The truth is that I'm not asking for better defense, so much as better plate discipline.

But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B

And we wonder why GB machine Jon Niese has had a few spotty starts?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third.

I know, right? Why don't they take this one step further and put Duda in center and Lagares at first?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B And we wonder why GB machine Jon Niese has had a few spotty starts?

He's not really a GB machine is he? He has absorbed his unfair share of Flores booboos, though. I think half of Flores's erros have come while Niese is pitching but I wouldn't say it's because he's gotten chances in the same ratio.

Niese to me looks like a line-drive-into-the-gap specialist these days.

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy MD wrote: But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third. I know, right? Why don't they take this one step further and put Duda in center and Lagares at first?

I think the obvious answer is that as long as they view Wright's absence from the lineup as temporary they're unwilling to "yo-yo" young Wilmer back and forth from the position he's trying to learn.
Not advocating that type of thinking just saying that I think it's the case, whereas if word were to suddenly come down from on high (or from Medgel) that Dabid was done for the year then I think we'd be more likely to see a switcheroo. A Muffy/Tejada swap makes more sense but probably isn't a big deal one way or the other.