Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot

[dinosaur jesus]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Saw this interesting tidbit in an Associated Press article: Maddux and Glavine become the first primarily starting pitchers to enter the Hall whose careers began after Bert Blyleven, who debuted in 1970. Maddux reached the major leagues in 1986 and Glavine a year later. That means that after the generation of starters that included Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, and Sutton, there's a long gap before another Hall of Fame starting pitcher came along. Gooden and Valenzuela are the pitchers that come immediately to mind when I think of the top pitchers from the time period between Blyleven and Maddux. And of course, Jack Morris has been discussed a lot lately. Who else?

I'm not sure how you define "between Blyleven and Maddux." Blyleven's last year was 1992, and Maddux's was 1986. Younger than Blyleven and older than Maddux? A lot of the top pitchers from that time seem to fall just short of Hall of Fame numbers. Saberhagen. Cone. Viola. Reuschel. Dennis Martinez. Stieb. Guidry. One or two more big seasons and they'd all be viable candidates. There's also, well, Roger Clemens.

[metsmarathon]

Nymr83 wrote: metsmarathon wrote: Going back to creatine... That's still perfectly legal in terms of baseball and the IOC, right? If so, what's the problem? Are contact lenses next? What about laser eye surgery? also, it totally bothers me that some voters only vote for, like, 3 guys cos that's all they think should go in, and especially when its unrelated to the number of players who they feel are or sufficient merit to deserve eventual induction. In other news, I'm starting to convince myself that Fred mcgriff might be a solid hall of famer, if we presume him to be clean of the peds. In any other era, he's a hofer. He's Willies McCovey & Stargell. Who gives a shit about the IOC? Unless a substance was either banned by MLB or illegal in the United States (MLB should not need to explicitly ban those) nobody should ever suffer for having taken it.

Well I only bring up the IOC for the purpose of demonstrating the full ok-ness of creatine as a supplement which the taking of by baseball players should not be cause of existential concern.

If a substance is not explicitly illegal and punishable, then I'm ok with players who take it.

And really, even players who have been busted for peds shoud not be forever blacklisted from hoc inclusion. It's ridiculous to accept all other forms of cheating but this (and specifically just the steroids and steroids like) cheating is super bad.

Also. Is hgh worse cheating thn steroids? I think it should be viewed as lesser cheating if you're wont to have levels of cheating. It's a different beast. Likely more akin to greenie-cheating In terms of what it ultimately does to a players overall stat line. And what also to do with the abuse of Ritalin and other add drugs?

[Benjamin Grimm]

dinosaur jesus wrote: I'm not sure how you define "between Blyleven and Maddux."

The paragraph I quoted says that it's going by debut dates. Blyleven debuted in 1970 and Maddux in 1986.

[metsmarathon]

I wonder how the advent of the steroid era impacted the hof candidacy of those pitchers betwixt blyleven and maddux

[Edgy MD]

I'm not sure, but I think Bobby Valentine just threw President Bush under the bus.

http://deadspin.com/bobby-valentine-suspected-ruben-sierra-of-roiding-was-1498067141

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Dan Lebatard stripped of his Hall of Fame vote in wake of Deadspin deal, tweets Rubin.

Sadly the guy who voted only for Morris gets to keep his. Murray Chass, we suspect, keeps his for another year to annoy Rob Neyer.


Interesting quote from Bobby Valentine on Deadspin: He also chimed in on our ballot acquired from Dan Le Batard, explaining that while he enjoyed the transparency of our process it continued a trend of making the Hall of Fame voting about the voters, not the players.

Bingo.

[Guest d'Kong76]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Dan Lebatard stripped of his Hall of Fame vote in wake of Deadspin deal

*golf clap*

[Edgy MD]

Suspended by the BBWAA for a year, too. And with that go his ballpark media credentials. Ka-POW!

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

LOLeBatard

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Suspended by the BBWAA for a year, too. And with that go his ballpark media credentials. Ka-POW!

Eh, LeBatard works primarily for ESPN these days, that alone pretty much keeps him out of the baseball loop anyway.

[Frayed Knot]

The NY Post concocts a list of the ten worst players to a receive one or more HoF votes and "shockingly" comes up with Armando Benitez as the worst ever.



oe: I should [dis]credit Post writer Justin Terranova for the list

[seawolf17]

Frayed Knot wrote: The NY Post concocts a list of the ten worst players to a receive one or more HoF votes and "shockingly" comes up with Armando Benitez as the worst ever.

That's just obnoxious.

I'm coming to hate everything about this whole process.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, it'd be nice if a process with the purported purpose of honoring people could have just a little bit of grace around it.

I wonder if it wasn't like this before internet or before Bill James wrote The Politics of Glory, or I just don't remember it as such.

[Edgy MD]

See that area between the two wings, in front of the colonnade, where everybody is gathering?

Anybody who tells you the Hall of Fame has no Piazza is lying.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Edgy MD wrote: See that area between the two wings, in front of the colonnade, where everybody is gathering? Anybody who tells you the Hall of Fame has no Piazza is lying.

Brilliant!

[Gwreck]

HOF has released some additional voters' ballots here.

Lots of frustration to pick through here. Couple of highlights:

-Larry Rocca votes for Trammell, Raines, Jack Morris and Hideo Nomo.

-Steve Kornacki of FoxSportsDetroit votes for 10 players. He includes Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa but not Barry Bonds. Let me know if you figure that one out.

-Joseph E. Hoppel votes for four players. Includes Jeff Bagwell but not Frank Thomas.

-Dave Cunningham includes a full 10 players and has both Bagwell and Don Mattingly, but not Frank Thomas.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

In all fairness to Hoppel and Cunningham, Bagwell-not-Thomas has some merit: Bagwell's peak was a little bit more peak-y (48.2 top-7-seasons fWAR vs. 45.3), and he provided a little more career value (79.5 fWAR to 73.6)-- including a bunch more than Thomas' from the defensive/baserunning arenas-- over a much shorter time.

[G-Fafif]

Gwreck wrote: -Larry Rocca votes for Trammell, Raines, Jack Morris and Hideo Nomo.

Rocca followed Bobby V to the Chiba Lotte Marines as his Jay Horwitz, so maybe there's something about Nomo's role as a pioneer in the US that appealed to him. That's the only reason I can come up with for any vote for Nomo, two no-hitters and fantastic rookie season notwithstanding.

But why he'd omit Maddux is a mystery (unless he was protecting the 98.84% legacy, in which case, what a great voter!).

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Nomo has some historical significance pioneering the modern global player market but yeah, kinda weird.

But really I care about baseball a lot but have to say the level of frothiness over this issue is way too muich for me anymore.

When we went to the Hall last summer I explained to Lunchpail that not all good players are represented here and that some less than good ones were as a result of being popular or needing consensus. He totally understood.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: Gwreck wrote: -Larry Rocca votes for Trammell, Raines, Jack Morris and Hideo Nomo. Rocca followed Bobby V to the Chiba Lotte Marines as his Jay Horwitz, so maybe there's something about Nomo's role as a pioneer in the US that appealed to him. That's the only reason I can come up with for any vote for Nomo, two no-hitters and fantastic rookie season notwithstanding. But why he'd omit Maddux is a mystery (unless he was protecting the 98.84% legacy, in which case, what a great voter!).

He explained on facebook and someone tweeted. Nomo he felt because he came from Japan and was a pioneer and presumed clean, by him, that that's good. Glavine and Maddux on the other hand, those bums, didn't use their connections to clean up the game, so as guilty as everyone else that played during that time.

[G-Fafif]

Ceetar wrote: Glavine and Maddux on the other hand, those bums, didn't use their connections to clean up the game, so as guilty as everyone else that played during that time.

I can think of 25 players Gl@v!ne kept from sullying the postseason one year.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Ceetar wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Gwreck wrote: -Larry Rocca votes for Trammell, Raines, Jack Morris and Hideo Nomo. Rocca followed Bobby V to the Chiba Lotte Marines as his Jay Horwitz, so maybe there's something about Nomo's role as a pioneer in the US that appealed to him. That's the only reason I can come up with for any vote for Nomo, two no-hitters and fantastic rookie season notwithstanding. But why he'd omit Maddux is a mystery (unless he was protecting the 98.84% legacy, in which case, what a great voter!). He explained on facebook and someone tweeted. Nomo he felt because he came from Japan and was a pioneer and presumed clean, by him, that that's good. Glavine and Maddux on the other hand, those bums, didn't use their connections to clean up the game, so as guilty as everyone else that played during that time.

One could argue that Morris also played in part of the steroid era and I don't recall him being outspoken on that issue, though certainly on others.

[Gwreck]

It's not arguable. Morris played in the steroid era. Right in the middle of it. So did Trammell and Raines, for that matter.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: He explained on facebook and someone tweeted. Nomo he felt because he came from Japan and was a pioneer and presumed clean, by him, that that's good.

Did he vote for Fernando Valenzuela? Granted El Torro was far from a trailblazer, but you could argue having a better start and bigger impact on transcending the popular culture zeitgeist than Nomo.

FWIW, its possible he did, and/or many that felt the way I laid it out, as Valenzuela managed to last two years on the ballot!
2003 BBWAA ( 6.2%)
2004 BBWAA ( 3.8%)

[Benjamin Grimm]

When is the beginning of the steroid era? I'm inclined to put it somewhere around 1987, when there was talk of a "juiced ball" and Lenny Dykstra showed up for spring training all bulked up.

[stevejrogers]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: When is the beginning of the steroid era? I'm inclined to put it somewhere around 1987, when there was talk of a "juiced ball" and Lenny Dykstra showed up for spring training all bulked up.

How about with Brian Downing (suspected) and Tom House (admitted) in the 1970s?

[Gwreck]

I think that's a fair definition, even though it's likely there was plenty of steroid use before then.

Mostly I have little use for the voters who suggest they can't vote for anyone in the "steroid era" but show little understanding of that term.

[Edgy MD]

I'm not sure I understand the term. It's pretty debatable.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

So all these guys who won't vote for anyone in the steroid era. This means they're not voting for the sainted Jeter and Rivera either? Verducci will be spewing something then, and it won't be soft rain.

[seawolf17]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: So all these guys who won't vote for anyone in the steroid era. This means they're not voting for the sainted Jeter and Rivera either? Verducci will be spewing something then, and it won't be soft rain.

They better sure as hell not.