2013 Rankings Project

[Frayed Knot]

GO!


Top 30 to be chosen from these following stellar candidates:

Hitters (sorted by ABs)

MURPHY - WRIGHT - BYRD - LAGARES - YOUNG
BUCK - DUDA - DAVIS - QUINTANILLA - TEJADA
SATIN - TURNER - BROWN - BAXTER - RECKER
VALDESPIN - d�ARNAUD - NIEUWENHUIS - FLORES - ANKIEL
den DEKKER - COWGILL - LUTZ - TOVAR


Pitchers as ranked by IPs

GEE - HARVEY - NIESE - HEFNER - WHEELER
TORRES - MARCUM - HAWKINS - RICE - PARNELL
ATCHISON - AARDSMA - MATSUZAKA - GERMEN - LYON
BURKE - EDGIN - MEJIA - HARANG - CARSON
BLACK - FELICIANO - FAMILIA - McHUGH - FRANCISCO
BYRDAK - HENN - LAFFEY

[seawolf17]

Gah. This team sucked. My "gut" list:

Harvey
Wright
Murphy
Byrd
Lagares
Niese
Gee
Buck
Duda
Young
Wheeler
Satin
Parnell
Hawkins
Quintanilla
Rice
Hefner
Davis
Tejada
Brown
Turner
Recker
Baxter
Torres
Aardsma
Matsuzaka
Valdespin
Atchison
Mejia
Flores

[Frayed Knot]

Maybe it was intentional, but your gut produced a Duda-less list.

[seawolf17]

Whoops. Fixed. Apparently my gut didn't think he was all that impressive.

[Frayed Knot]

I haven't edited this all down yet or figured out how the pitchers and non-pitchers are going to mesh.
I suppose I could wait until I figure it all out and just publish the final list but I'd rather inflict my thinking process on you all.


HARVEY -- Unquestionably the best year among pitchers even with the abrupt end factored in
GEE - Only starter to go wire to wire and get more than 30 starts. Tough start but strong finish
NIESE -- More baserunners than we�re used to from him, plus almost two months blown out of his season
HEFNER -- Was the best starter on the team for a short stretch before the premature end
PARNELL -- Solid if not spectacular, and then ended early
WHEELER -- Talented rookie who alternated pitching like he had talent and like he was a rookie
HAWKINS -- Stepped into the closer�s role and didn�t miss a beat
TORRES -- Occasionally quite good, plus points for versatility
RICE -- Didn�t look like a career minor leaguer most of the time
ATCHINSON -- GERMEN -- AARDSMA
These three are close enough to put in any order: Atchison goes first with most innings and lowest WHiP, Germen 2nd for lowest ERA and strongest finish
MEJIA -- Encouraging five starts
MARCUM -- Wasn�t as bad as his record, but then it would be tough to be
BLACK -- Looked promising in his short trial
EDGIN -- BURKE -- FELICIANO -- CARSON


WRIGHT -- Muffy played the entire year and had 1/3 more PAs but 70 pts of OBA and 100 of Slg is a BIG gap so I'm putting a little Sugar on top of the hitters heap
MURPHY -- Only position player to play the entire season and, despite seeming to rack up singles most of the time, still managed 52 XBHs
BYRD -- Team leader in HRs and more XBHs (51) than Wright despite fewer ABs. May have finished 1st among hitters if he had finished the season here
YOUNG -- Not the OBA you want from a leadoff hitter, but played hard, ran well, played some good LF, and was the 4th non-out in the lineup for much of the year
LAGARES -- Hitting is still a question but oh that defense was sublime!!
DUDA -- Was the better 1B of the year even if that�s like being the tallest midget in the circus
BUCK -- Great April then plummeted
DAVIS -- Only an improved finish got him this high
QUINTANILLA -- Out of place as a starter, but better than the alternative
TEJADA -- Total regression to where he wasn�t even as good as his waiver-wire backup
SATIN -- Some decent hitting, but contributes almost nowhere else
TURNER -- I seem to be less down on him than many of you folks, but still only average in a limited role
BROWN -- Gotta like the power off the bench
RECKER -- Was good for the occasional HR and, of course, prettying up the team photo
d�ARNAUD -- Offense was essentially Recker�s minus the power and we're not voting on future promise here
VALDESPIN -- More headaches for his own manager than for the other team's
NIEUWENHUIS -- Has yet to adjust to ML pitchers� adjustments to him after the first time around
and, fighting it out for the last couple of places: FLORES -- den DEKKER -- ANKIEL, probably in that order

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

30. Harvey
29. Murphy
28. Wright
27. Byrd
26. Gee
25. Niese
*
24. Lagares
23. Wheeler
22. Young
21. Parnell
20. Hawkins
19. Buck
18. Rice
17. Duda
16. Hefner
15. Davis
14. Quintanilla
*
13. Satin
12. Germen
11. Atchison
10. Turner
9. Brown
8. Aardsma
7. Recker
6. Torres
5. Marcum
4. Edgin
3. Baxter
2. Lyon
1. Valdespin
0. Tejada
-1. Burke
-2. D'Arnaud
-3. Nieuwenhuis
-4. Mejia
-5. Flores
-6. Matsuzaka
-7. Harang
*
-8. Black
-9. den Dekker
-10. Lutz
-11. Feliciano
-12. Francisco
-13. Familia
-14. Ankeil
-15. Tovar
-16. Henn
-17. Byrdak
-18. Ceteno
-19. Laffey
-20. McHugh
-21. Carson

[metsmarathon]

i don't quite understand how you could have murphy ahead of wright. yeah, he played hte full season, but in 2/3 the plate appearances, wright had 6 fWAR to murphy's 3 fWAR. bbref has it at 5.9 WAR to 1.9 WAR, an even larger margin, due to their harsher assessment of murphy's defense.

wright was a stealth MVP candidate before he got hurt, and his prorated production put him at the top of the NL (second, perhaps, only to hanley ramirez). as it is, fangraphs has him as the 4th highest WAR total in the NL, and bbref has him at 8th best. murphy is nowhere near hte top of these lists (82nd and 75th, respectively).

wright versus harvey, and murphy versus byrd are tougher calls, but wright versus murphy should be a no brainer.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Harvey
Wright
Byrd
Murphy
Niese
Lagares
Gee
Young
Wheeler
Satin
Torres
Buck
Parnell
Hawkins
Rice
Duda
Turner
Recker
Quintanilla
Hefner
Davis
Brown
Tejada
Flores
Baxter
Aardsma
Matsuzaka
Valdespin
Atchison
Mejia

[Vic Sage]

30 - Harvey
29 - Wright
----
28 - Byrd
27 - Gee
26 - Murphy
25 - Young
24 - Niese
23 - Lagares
22 - Wheeler
21 - Hefner
20 - Parnell
19 - Hawkins
----
18 - Torres
17 - Satin
16 - Duda
15 - Rice
14 - Turner
13 - Brown
12 - Recker
11 - Davis
10 - Buck
----
09 - German
08 - Atchison
07 - Aardsma
06 - Mejia
05 - Black
04 - Matsuzaka
03 - Quintanilla
02 - d'Arnaud
01 - Tejada

Players whose negative impact was amplified by too many PAs or IP:

pitchers: Lyon, Marcum, Burke
players: Baxter, Valdespin

The rest were either bad or mediocre, and with too few appearances to be considered significant.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

30 - HARVEY
29 - WRIGHT
28 - MURPHY
27 - BYRD
26 - GEE
25 - NIESE
24 - YOUNG
23 - HEFNER
22 - LAGARES
21 - PARNELL
20 - WHEELER
19 - HAWKINS
18 - DUDA
17 - TORRES
16 - BUCK
15 - RICE
14 - DAVIS
13 - QUINTANILLA
12 - ATCHISON
11 - SATIN
10 - TEJADA
9 - TURNER
8 - BROWN
7 - GERMEN
6 - AARDSMA
5 - RECKER
4 - MEJIA
3 - MATSUZAKA
2 - BLACK
1 - d'ARNAUD

[Ceetar]

WRIGHT
HARVEY
BYRD
GEE
NIESE
PARNELL
MURPHY
WHEELER
LAGARES
DUDA
HEFNER
SATIN
DAVIS
TURNER
GERMEN
RICE
HAWKINS
BROWN
ATCHISON
TORRES
MEJIA
BUCK
YOUNG
RECKER
d�ARNAUD
EDGIN
NIEUWENHUIS
MARCUM
BLACK
AARDSMA

Edited November 12, 2013 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

GEE whiz, the guy who pitched the most innings on the team can even crack the top 30?!?!?

You're also Lagares-less, Hefner-less, and Shortstop-less.
Some of those may be intentional, but I don't suspect all of them are.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: GEE whiz, the guy who pitched the most innings on the team can even crack the top 30?!?!? You're also Lagares-less, Hefner-less, and Shortstop-less. Some of those may be intentional, but I don't suspect all of them are.

oh crap.

I did most of this the other day and thought I was done. I definitely remember putting Hefner in (and am SS-less for a reason)
edit: clearly I didn't save. okay, Gee, Hefner, Lagares..placement incoming.

[Frayed Knot]

This thread will be kept open for another few weeks at least so you can take your time and get things right ... not that there's any true "right" answer but you should be in a position where you can justify your choices.
Like, for instance, I would think it would take a lot of mental gymnastics to explain Baxter ten slots ahead of Young - but maybe you do.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: This thread will be kept open for another few weeks at least so you can take your time and get things right ... not that there's any true "right" answer but you should be in a position where you can justify your choices. Like, for instance, I would think it would take a lot of mental gymnastics to explain Baxter ten slots ahead of Young - but maybe you do.

It's because Young was bad and Baxter had 2 walk-offs. I guess that's not entirely fair, I think I was remembering some of Baxter's 2012 since he got so little time. Screw it, off goes Mike.

It feels like a tossup after like 12. points for memorable moments or good hair or something.

[Frayed Knot]

Bumpity bump-bump, bumpity bump-bump ... look at rankings go


We've got five solid ballots so far here from JCL, FK, Seawolf, Vic Sage & LWFS
Also Ceetar who has vowed to re-check his choices and get back, and I believe at least G-FaFiF was talking about submitting one but so far hasn't gotten a round tuit.

Additional votes, ballot updates, or just plain comments and insults are still being taken from anyone else.
Going to keep this open for the remainder of December before 'putting it into the books'.

[Frayed Knot]

OK this time I actually mean it -- I'm going to close this up by the end of the week.
So if anyone has anything to add, update, change, or argue, do so soon or forever hold your peace ... or your piece ... or your pleats.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Do you still count the Schaefer results as one of the voters?

[nymr83]

30 Harvey
29 Wright
28 Gee
27 Byrd
26 Wheeler
25 Niese
24 Hawkins
23 Lagares
22 Parnell
21 Murphy
20 Duda
19 Hefner
18 Young
17 Buck
16 Quantanilla
15 Davis
14 Torres
13 Satin
12 Recker
11 Rice
10 Mejia
9 Turner
8 Niewenhuis
7 Atchison
6 Aardsma
5 Brown
4 Baxter
3 Tejada
2 Marcum
1 d'Arnaud

Edited to move Mejia down from 20 points to 9 points after my error was pointed out.
Edited to drop Tejada, he really sucked

Edited January 6, 2014 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Do you still count the Schaefer results as one of the voters?

Yes

[nymr83]

This was one of those years where you just want to stop after 10 guys and say nobody else contributed at all.

[Frayed Knot]

Which accounts for the fact that your 11th place guy is one who pitched all of 27 innings.

[nymr83]

There is a strong possibility that i misread a number or the wrong stat line, ill look later

[Frayed Knot]

I'm not saying that vote was wrong necessarily, only that when the guy who got the 18th most time on the mound finishes 11th overall it does pretty much emphasize your statement about a drop-off after the first ten.

Personally I think that the amount of playing time has to be a significant consideration. For better or worse, those who did get the ABs and the IPs are the guys who made up the bulk of the 2013 Mets and devaluing them (by over-valuing part-timers) because we wish someone else was in there instead I believe at least partially mis-applies the goal of this little project.
Also, just as a general idea, I find projecting small samples as a sign of what a given player would have done if granted more playing time is a bit too faulty and speculative. With Mejia in particular, there's only so much impact one can have with just 5 mid-season starts including the last one when he was pulled after the 3rd inning never to return for the season.

Obviously there's always a trade-off between time and productively and there are no rules about how much to weight either.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: Personally I think that the amount of playing time has to be a significant consideration. For better or worse, those who did get the ABs and the IPs are the guys who made up the bulk of the 2013 Mets and devaluing them (by over-valuing part-timers) because we wish someone else was in there instead I believe at least partially mis-applies the goal of this little project. Also, just as a general idea, I find projecting small samples as a sign of what a given player would have done if granted more playing time is a bit too faulty and speculative. With Mejia in particular, there's only so much impact one can have with just 5 mid-season starts including the last one when he was pulled after the 3rd inning never to return for the season.

Is there an internet symbol for rolls eyes 10 times with projectile vomit that travels farther than an R.A. Dickey fastball?

[Ceetar]

Personally I think that the amount of playing time has to be a significant consideration. For better or worse, those who did get the ABs and the IPs are the guys who made up the bulk of the 2013 Mets and devaluing them (by over-valuing part-timers) because we wish someone else was in there instead I believe at least partially mis-applies the goal of this little project. Also, just as a general idea, I find projecting small samples as a sign of what a given player would have done if granted more playing time is a bit too faulty and speculative. With Mejia in particular, there's only so much impact one can have with just 5 mid-season starts including the last one when he was pulled after the 3rd inning never to return for the season. Is there an internet symbol for rolls eyes 10 times with projectile vomit that travels farther than an R.A. Dickey fastball?

8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)===

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: I'm not saying that vote was wrong necessarily, only that when the guy who got the 18th most time on the mound finishes 11th overall it does pretty much emphasize your statement about a drop-off after the first ten. Personally I think that the amount of playing time has to be a significant consideration. For better or worse, those who did get the ABs and the IPs are the guys who made up the bulk of the 2013 Mets and devaluing them (by over-valuing part-timers) because we wish someone else was in there instead I believe at least partially mis-applies the goal of this little project. Also, just as a general idea, I find projecting small samples as a sign of what a given player would have done if granted more playing time is a bit too faulty and speculative. With Mejia in particular, there's only so much impact one can have with just 5 mid-season starts including the last one when he was pulled after the 3rd inning never to return for the season. Obviously there's always a trade-off between time and productively and there are no rules about how much to weight either.

I've always been a quality of quantity guy when ranking players, but after review i've edited my rankings to move Mejia down from 20 points to 9 points as the innings were just too low.
As a rule, I think that once a player gets below the theoretical replacement level (across the board, offensively and defensively) he could have 700 Plate Appearences and I'd still put him very low as he contributed to losing not winning. This year's examples of that principle include Marcum and probably Tejada... I've just dropped Tejada some more as well after looking at things again, he made Rey Ordonez look like Nomar Garciaparra with the bat this year.

[nymr83]

I'd like to take issue with JCL's (non) ranking of Mejia, what did Brandon Lyon do to finish higher than him? 34.1 innings of 4.98ERA/1.63WHIP can't be more valuable than 27.1 innings of 2.30/1.17 and they came in starts when you have to face batters multiple times.

[G-Fafif]

Strong conviction for a first five (Harvey, Wright, Byrd, Murphy, Gee), very little thereafter. Thus will abstain courteously.

[Frayed Knot]

RANK	PLAYER
30	MATT HARVEY
29	DAVID WRIGHT
28	MARLON BYRD
27	DANIEL MURPHY
26	DILLON GEE
25	JONATHON NIESE
24	JUAN LAGARES
23	ERIC YOUNG JR.
22	ZACK WHEELER
21	BOBBY PARNELL
20	LUCAS DUDA
19	JEREMY HEFNER
18	LATROY HAWKINS
17	JOHN BUCK
16	JOSH SATIN
15	SCOTT RICE
14	IKE DAVIS
13	CARLOS TORRES
12	OMAR QUINTANILLA
11	JUSTIN TURNER
10	ANDREW BROWN
9	ANTHONY RECKER
8	SCOTT ATCHISON
7	GONZALEZ GERMEN
6	DAVID AARDSMA
5	RUBEN TEJADA
4	JENNRY MEJIA
3	MIKE BAXTER
2	DAISUKE MATSUZAKA
1	SHAWN MARCUM