Did Nelson Doubleday Really Say That?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Eleven seasons have elapsed since the day former Mets partner Nelson Doubleday prophesized Fred Wilpon would run [the Mets] organization into the ground....

Read the rest at http://risingapple.com/2013/10/01/grace-time-time-ownership-clock-back/

[G-Fafif]

Wrong Wilpon.

"Jeff Wilpon said he's going to learn how to run a baseball team and take over at the end of the year. Run for the hills, boys. I think probably all those baseball people will bail."

Thorough profile of the unbeloved Jeff Wilpon from 2008 here.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I knew about Nelson's shots at the heir to the throne. But the quote in full: Eleven seasons have elapsed since the day former Mets partner Nelson Doubleday prophesized Fred Wilpon would run this organization into the ground, while additionally offering a less than kind opinion regarding Jeff Wilpon on his way out the door. leaves no doubt that Doubleday was referring to Fred running the Mets into the ground, not Fredo, at least according to the author, anyway.

[G-Fafif]

I don't remember anything specific about Fred. The author may have meant it in a general sense. Or was just misremembering.

[batmagadanleadoff]

After his stint on the bike, [Jeff Wilpon'll] hit the computer and scan the net, Googling for everything related to the Mets that day, until exhausting his search to the point where he has nothing left to read anymore.

I wonder if Jeff lurks here. Sounds like he would. He probably hates me if he does. (Like just about everybody else here)

[batmagadanleadoff]

G-Fafif wrote: I don't remember anything specific about Fred. The author may have meant it in a general sense. Or was just misremembering.

I didn't remember that either. Hence the thread title.

[Vic Sage]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: After his stint on the bike, [Jeff Wilpon'll] hit the computer and scan the net, Googling for everything related to the Mets that day, until exhausting his search to the point where he has nothing left to read anymore. I wonder if Jeff lurks here. Sounds like he would. He probably hates me if he does. (Like just about everybody else here)

Don't make yourself a martyr, it's unattractive. And i assure you everybody here doesn't hate you. Most folks just don't give you (or me, or anybody else) a second thought, one way or the other. I'm sure only those who really know you have any interest in hating you.

[Centerfield]

I've been meaning to bring up Doubleday. Piazza specifically mentioned him during his Mets HOF induction speech. I know it was rumor at one point, but is it generally accepted now (perhaps even validated by Piazza) that Nelson was the driving force in obtaining him?

[Edgy MD]

It's generally accepted, and probably even true in part. But it's also likely overstated.

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: After his stint on the bike, [Jeff Wilpon'll] hit the computer and scan the net, Googling for everything related to the Mets that day, until exhausting his search to the point where he has nothing left to read anymore. I wonder if Jeff lurks here. Sounds like he would. He probably hates me if he does. (Like just about everybody else here)

I know for a fact they get a digest of Mets news from the major places, but whether they get one from blogs/twitter/forums I don't know.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I like Jeff and would like to ride bikes with him sometime.

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield wrote: I've been meaning to bring up Doubleday. Piazza specifically mentioned him during his Mets HOF induction speech. I know it was rumor at one point, but is it generally accepted now (perhaps even validated by Piazza) that Nelson was the driving force in obtaining him?

The story as I recall it of course began when Piazza was dealt to the Marlins which, as everyone knew, was no more than a stopping point on Mike's journey to somewhere, somewhere that is that wasn't the greater Miami area.
Naturally NY media types (most loudly Mike + Mad Dog) raised the idea of the Mets getting him. But GM Steve Phillips' initial reply was that they already had a catcher (the then-injured Todd Hundley) and so they'd prefer to spend their financial and/or monetary resources elsewhere. It was at this point where rumor has it that the drumbeats got into Doubleday's head causing him to poke his head into Phillips's office suggesting that it might be a good idea to "look into" this Piazza situation.

Now one would need to know that specific office's politics to say whether a "suggestion" like that from a boss is actually just a suggestion or is more like an order. I don't believe Phillips made personnel decision based on the whims of ownership but I suppose we'll never know. In any case I don't believe anyone ever claimed it was more than just a nudge from Doubleday but those who tended to see things in a binary way with Fred as the devil and Nelson as the true genius who had his team swiped away from him surely latched on to that story as proof of Doubleday's baseball savvy.
As time went on, M&MD, who initially denied their voices steered the Mets hand in any way, also started accepting more and more of the accolades over the years.

[Edgy MD]

I still think Ed Yarnell's gonna pan out.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: Centerfield wrote: I've been meaning to bring up Doubleday. Piazza specifically mentioned him during his Mets HOF induction speech. I know it was rumor at one point, but is it generally accepted now (perhaps even validated by Piazza) that Nelson was the driving force in obtaining him? The story as I recall it of course began when Piazza was dealt to the Marlins which, as everyone knew, was no more than a stopping point on Mike's journey to somewhere, somewhere that is that wasn't the greater Miami area. Naturally NY media types (most loudly Mike + Mad Dog) raised the idea of the Mets getting him. But GM Steve Phillips' initial reply was that they already had a catcher (the then-injured Todd Hundley) and so they'd prefer to spend their financial and/or monetary resources elsewhere. It was at this point where rumor has it that the drumbeats got into Doubleday's head causing him to poke his head into Phillips's office suggesting that it might be a good idea to "look into" this Piazza situation. As time went on, M&MD, who initially denied their voices steered the Mets hand in any way, also started accepting more and more of the accolades over the years.

On Piazza's first post-trade appearance with M&MD, Piazza "thanked" M&MD for their "role" in getting him to New York, so the legend had a ton of legs early on.

Now one would need to know that specific office's politics to say whether a "suggestion" like that from a boss is actually just a suggestion or is more like an order. I don't believe Phillips made personnel decision based on the whims of ownership but I suppose we'll never know. In any case I don't believe anyone ever claimed it was more than just a nudge from Doubleday but those who tended to see things in a binary way with Fred as the devil and Nelson as the true genius who had his team swiped away from him surely latched on to that story as proof of Doubleday's baseball savvy.

I'm dealing with a troll on a general baseball forum that feels the line of demarcation of when Wilpon starts his power play starts in October of 1986, with the Mitchell trade and not offering Knight a contract for 1987.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, those are always fun. It's always about Kevin Mitchell.

Knight and Mitchell are the Yin and Yang of goofy racial fantasies, and the root of all retro-Pon-hating.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, those are always fun. It's always about Kevin Mitchell. Knight and Mitchell are the Yin and Yang of goofy racial fantasies, and the root of all retro-Pon-hating.

Mitchell doesn't do the Pons any favor by pointing out how he was traded due to his influence on Doc and Darryl, and yet it was only after Mitchell's leaving that Doc and Darryl's problems became public.

Neither does the idea that McReynolds was such a "milquetoast" kind of guy that couldn't wait to go hunting during the offseason, which of course fails to mention that he was still just one guy amongst plenty of extroverted Mets still on the roster.

Here is a better question as well, if they kept Juan Samuel at his natural position, does the Dykstra/McDowell trade still go down as "one of the worse in team history" as that trade, despite about 3 years later, gets lumped in with Knight/Mitchell as part of the "Wilpon got rid of the guys who were winners" narrative.

[Edgy MD]

You're not going to win the argument that way, Steve.

We've been down this road 1,000 times, but disliking or discrediting the Mitchell trade isn't the same as establishing Fred Wilpon's manipulations behind it.

I don't think the latter question is a better question. Defending the trade, while allowing for the nonsense that Wilpon engineered it and every bad thing from 1980-2001, is foolish.

[Frayed Knot]

SteveJRogers wrote: On Piazza's first post-trade appearance with M&MD, Piazza "thanked" M&MD for their "role" in getting him to New York, so the legend had a ton of legs early on.

Which is a natural thing to say when you're on the air for the first time with the biggest voices in NYC talk radio. It's also almost certainly something that he was told to say. How the hell would he know what M&MD were talking about when he was in the midst of traveling from LA to Miami?
And, like I said earlier, I recall them reluctant to claim credit for it early on but were less inclined to downplay their role as time went on and the Piazza era was remembered more fondly.

I'm dealing with a troll on a general baseball forum that feels the line of demarcation of when Wilpon starts his power play starts in October of 1986, with the Mitchell trade and not offering Knight a contract for 1987.

Should I even ask how he knows those moves were entirely on Wilpon while being completely free of Doubleday fingerprints (not to mention where Frank Cashen was in all this)?
Never mind, I don't want to know. My point being that stuff like that are clearly after-the-fact rationalizations that have no basis in actual public knowledge; they're being said solely so as to fit the pre-determined conclusions of the speaker.

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: [..those who tended to see things in a binary way with Fred as the devil and Nelson as the true genius who had his team swiped away from him ..].

I was one of those. But not a devil and a genius, more like a dolt and a baseball man. And I arrived at this conclusion through ignorance and wishful thinking more than anything else.

[Edgy MD]

Remember when Hernandez, who had avoided the DL his whole career, went down like a ton of bricks between second and third, clutching his hammy in agony? He was cruising toward a 3,000 hit career and then KABLAMM! --- the whole trajectory of his career changed. He would never really be good again. Tim McCarver said it looked like he had been shot.

Wilpon.

[Zvon]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: After his stint on the bike, [Jeff Wilpon'll] hit the computer and scan the net, Googling for everything related to the Mets that day, until exhausting his search to the point where he has nothing left to read anymore. I wonder if Jeff lurks here. Sounds like he would. He probably hates me if he does. (Like just about everybody else here)

I sincerely hope nobody hates anybody here. At times you bring a different perspective and that's what sharing words and ideas is all about. To me, I might not agree with what you say at times, but I respect the passion with which you say it. Bottom line we all have one thing in common and it is the reason we are here. Because we care for the Mets, maybe even more than the common fan. It's that bond that brings us here. The things we say, they are all rooted in our concern for the Mets. There should be no hate here.

[G-Fafif]

How could anybody hate the architect of Butterball Field?

[batmagadanleadoff]

After his stint on the bike, [Jeff Wilpon'll] hit the computer and scan the net, Googling for everything related to the Mets that day, until exhausting his search to the point where he has nothing left to read anymore. I wonder if Jeff lurks here. Sounds like he would. He probably hates me if he does. (Like just about everybody else here) Don't make yourself a martyr, it's unattractive. And i assure you everybody here doesn't hate you. Most folks just don't give you (or me, or anybody else) a second thought, one way or the other. I'm sure only those who really know you have any interest in hating you.

This is embarrassing. I made what I thought was an off the cuff remark. I didn't expect such an ... I dunno ... strong response.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: I'm dealing with a troll on a general baseball forum that feels the line of demarcation of when Wilpon starts his power play starts in October of 1986, with the Mitchell trade and not offering Knight a contract for 1987. Should I even ask how he knows those moves were entirely on Wilpon while being completely free of Doubleday fingerprints (not to mention where Frank Cashen was in all this)? Never mind, I don't want to know. My point being that stuff like that are clearly after-the-fact rationalizations that have no basis in actual public knowledge; they're being said solely so as to fit the pre-determined conclusions of the speaker.

Always fun to connect the dots (Wilpon starts to take more control in the winter of 1986...) in hindsight when you have a favorite target.

[Edgy MD]

I guess we have a different idea of fun.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: I guess we have a different idea of fun.

You do realize I'm AGREEING WITH YOU with your points?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

That's a great profile of Jeff. I think he probably deserves his rep as a snot and probably like his dad has screwed up stuff he was trying to fix but I really don't think he's the same kind of incompetent boob his better-mannered Dad is, always putting personal favors, questionable style tastes, a thirst for thrift, etc ahead of what any idiot could see was best for the team and its fans.

Jeff earned my respect when he didn't come out in the middle of the Omar vs. Rubin press conference circus and fire Omar on the spot, even though he probably should have. That was a terrible spot to be in and he negotiated it admirably, acknowledging Omar was out of line. Fred would have denied anything even happened, I think.

[Edgy MD]

SteveJRogers wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I guess we have a different idea of fun. You do realize I'm AGREEING WITH YOU with your points?

Well, if you're being ironic, then, mmm, so am I.

[Zvon]

Zvon wrote: [..those who tended to see things in a binary way with Fred as the devil and Nelson as the true genius who had his team swiped away from him ..]. I was one of those. But not a devil and a genius, more like a dolt and a baseball man. And I arrived at this conclusion through ignorance and wishful thinking more than anything else.

I want to clarify: I still would have liked to have seen how Doubleday would have handled the team if things happened differently and the Wilpons left the scene. I used to believe that there is no doubt that things would have been better, but from what I've learned from you guys it's very possible things wouldn't have been any better.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I don't see how the National League team from New York City could have done any worse. And yes, I didn't forget about 2000. Or the Beltran-Delgado-Wright-Reyes years. But the prolonged lows -- most of the '90's -- the total surrender of the fanbase to the Yankees - the current economic disaster with corresponding Baltic Avenue payroll, which might not be over despite what Fred and Fredo claim. I'll go out on an extremely shaky limb (I'm really shaking here) and say that it would've been better with Doubleday.