2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[metsmarathon]

mcgriff... ok... i guess... if you just look at home runs. why, he's got as many as gehrig - he must be a hall of famer!

and morris, well, he won a lot of games and did that postseason thing. so that must be awfully nice.

and with mattingly, there was... um... well he had three really great years... and, um... i suppose if he never got hurt he might've... ah... didn't he play defense well? does that make up for any of it? ah... yeah... so... he was a yankee, so that's gotta count... right? ...right?

[Guest The Second Spitter]

metsmarathon wrote: ah... yeah... so... he was a yankee, so that's gotta count... right? ...right?

Yanqui 4 Life! That counts extra.

[Edgy MD]

Dwight Evans had damn near twice the career that Mattingly had. His Hall of Fame candidacy was met with little more than a shrug.

[bmfc1]

Another ballot tracker:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/the_2012_hall_of_fame_ballot_collecting_gizmo

[Benjamin Grimm]

What does Nate Silver have to say about this?

[Edgy MD]

Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.

[MFS62]

I'll vote for a person who spent most of his career as a DH (I'm callin' YOU out, Martinez) sometime after punter Ray Guy makes the Football HOF.

Later

[Edgy MD]

You're calling him out as if he did anything wrong. He didn't.

[metsmarathon]

so, no american league pitchers in the dh era either, then?

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.

What do they have against Craig Biggio I wonder?

With the exception of Palmerio, the turn of the century through late 1920s guys (Lajoie, Speaker) due to the early days of the the writers trying to figure out what they were doing, and Rose obviously, all of the 3,000 hit guys have been first ballot enshrinees.

Unless EVERYONE including those who don't "fit the anecdotal narrative" that played from 1995-2004 is being painted with same broad strokes?

[Edgy MD]

They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?

Being that at least one voter doesn't cover baseball anymore and retains the vote solely to not vote for Bonds/Clemens, I could see that.

[stevejrogers]

Just making sure my statement is correct:

Rose, we know
Cobb, first class
Aaron, first ballot
Musial, first ballot
Speaker, second writers' class
Anson, 1939's Old Timers Committee
Wagner, first class
Yastrezmski, first ballot
Molitor, first ballot
Collins, third writers' class
Jeter, still active
Mays, first ballot
Murray, first ballot
Lajoie, second writers' ballot
Ripken, first ballot
Brett, first ballot
Waner, got in by the writers in 1952 on the 5th try on the normal ballot
Yount, first ballot
Gwynn, first ballot
Winfield, first ballot
Biggio, first year on the ballot
Henderson, first ballot
Carew, first ballot
Brock, first ballot
Palmerio, third year on the ballot
Boggs, first ballot
Kaline, first ballot
Clemente, special election after death

Okay, so really since "first ballots" started to mean something with 1962's Bob Feller and Jackie Robinson the statement holds, with the exception of Rose and Palmerio. But for the most part it is considered a mortal lock club,

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is?

You say that snarkily, but I respond, okay, then how did Paul Molitor get in on his first ballot? Did the writers get dumber in general knowledge in the nearly 10 years since Molitor first appeared on the ballot?

[seawolf17]

That 3000-hit list is really interesting.

Also, "ballot" is a word that looks funny when you see it print too many times.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: Also projecting an empty class. Valadius' nightmare is coming to pass.

Even more of a nightmare, all three Veterans Committee members, and the Frick Award winner (Toronto's Tom Cheek) are dead at the present time with only Spinx Award winner Paul Hagen (unless there is a Buck O'Neil Award awarded this year) as the only living person to give his own speech! I'm guessing it has been quite a long time, if ever, that none of the normal Hall nominees were alive to accept enshrinement.

[Edgy MD]

SteveJRogers wrote: Edgy MD wrote: They don't actually care about baseball, and have no idea who this Biggio guy from Hooston is? You say that snarkily, but I respond, okay, then how did Paul Molitor get in on his first ballot? Did the writers get dumber in general knowledge in the nearly 10 years since Molitor first appeared on the ballot?

I don't really mean it snarkily. But yes, it's possible the writers got dumber since 2004, or more stubborn, or less grave about their responsiblity.

Molitor also played on a World Series winner at the end of his career, giving him a nice showcase, along with a nice career finish. Biggio was carried by his team mostly the last few years. By the time he got to the World Series, he was a shadow of his better days, he didn't perform well, and his team got swept. So I don't think Molitor is that analogous, profile-wise.

[Benjamin Grimm]

As someone who thinks there are too many people in the Hall of Fame, I don't have a problem with a year in which nobody gets elected. I have a partisan interest in Piazza, so I hope it doesn't happen this year, but in general, the fewer the better.

There was a year not so long ago, I think, where the only inductees were from the Veterans Committee. Does anyone remember if that's so and if true, what year that was?

Oh, and since Harold Baines came very close to 3,000 hits, I'd have to say that that total should not make anyone automatic for the Hall. 3,000 hits and 500 homers are not what they once were.

[seawolf17]

1996, if this list is right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Baseball_Hall_of_Fame

Jim Bunning, Bill Foster, Ned Hanlon, and Earl Weaver, all VC guys. No BBWAA guys.

[Edgy MD]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Oh, and since Harold Baines came very close to 3,000 hits, I'd have to say that that total should not make anyone automatic for the Hall. 3,000 hits and 500 homers are not what they once were.

Yeah, but Craig Biggio did achieve 3,000 hits; plus 1,100 walks, 290 homers; and 400 steals (at a 77% success rate). He was hit by 285 pitches, leading the league five times and ultimately coming within two of turn-of-the-century Hughie Jennings' all-time leading number. In 12,504 plate appearances, he somehow grounded into only 150 double plays.

And while Harold Baines played left field or no place through his career, Biggio played catcher, second, and center.

Biggio is what you want in the Hall of Fame. It's almost like he's being doubly penalized for playing in the steroids era and not hitting enough homers.

[ashie62]

Biggio is a class act with a very great resume..

I'm adding Piazza, Edgar Martinez, and Fred McGriff

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: As someone who thinks there are too many people in the Hall of Fame, I don't have a problem with a year in which nobody gets elected.

Except there are _at least_ 4-5 no doubt about it Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame guys on the ballot this year. You don't have to put someone in every year, but you sure do have to put in the guys that deserve it.

[Edgy MD]

murraychassholyshitmurraychass!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'd love a smaller-- or tiered-- HoF too, if I had to start it from scratch.

But if you're going to have King Kongs and Ruffings and Perezes and lesser Waners in there, hell, it's already been decided by others what kind of Hall we're going to have. Might as well have all of the players we KNOW are great in there, too, right?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy MD wrote: murraychassholyshitmurraychass!

I especially like how he hyphenates "new-fangled." That makes him a hall of famer in my book.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know how anybody gets such a high bullshit-per-word ratio into one entire essay.

He threatens (but makes no commitments) to turn in his voting privileges. Somewhere at the Hall of Fame, somebody is saying, "Holy shit! Murray Chass still has voting privileges?!"

[metsmarathon]

well, somebody told chass that biggio was a roider. i guess that settles it then.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, but Craig Biggio did achieve 3,000 hits; plus 1,100 walks, 290 homers; and 400 steals (at a 77% success rate). He was hit by 285 pitches, leading the league five times and ultimately coming within two of turn-of-the-century Hughie Jennings' all-time leading number. In 12,504 plate appearances, he somehow grounded into only 150 double plays.

]

And chalked up nearly 700 doubles in his career, behind only Speaker, Rose, Musial & Cobb
Think of him as George Brett minus 24 points of BA plus a little power (although not much, plus was in a tougher hitting environment) but with more speed and defensive versatility.

Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO.

I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in.

Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!

[Frayed Knot]

SteveJRogers wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Mostly I remember Mike & Mad Dog (Chris particularly) as being vehemently anti-Biggio for the HoF - which is as good a reason as any for a 'Yea' vote IMO. I heard Colin Cowherd of ESPN Radio fame declare that Biggio doesn't belong anywhere near a Hall of Fame, while he'd put Canseco in. Reasoning, because of the FAME part! Canseco is much more FAMOUS than Biggio will ever be!

My only comment to this is that it's exactly what I'd expect from Cowherd and that comments like these are why, rather than hoping he (and many of his ESPN brethren) would talk more baseball, I'd prefer they talk less.