why do we suck?

[Vic Sage]

bound to happen sooner or later.

and it's [crossout:1qdql9mt]KeySPAN[/crossout:1qdql9mt], not [crossout:1qdql9mt]KeySTONE[/crossout:1qdql9mt]... Keystone is where the Mets play.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, well, it ain't either now.

The Mets make me dream of lager.

[bmfc1]

Because that's what ho's gotta do to make money.

Wrong thread?

[Edgy MD]

third in the league in offense in July. Suddenly Thole, Murphy, Wright, Tejada, Nieuwenhuis, and Duda all get a case of the noodlebats at the same time. If it's not a big enough sample size to trace, it sure is a big enough one to cripple the team's season.

My new pet theories, all morale based:
[list:t6i2zefc][*:t6i2zefc]Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.[/*:m:t6i2zefc]
[*:t6i2zefc]Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.[/*:m:t6i2zefc]
[*:t6i2zefc]The lost faith in Collins.[/*:m:t6i2zefc][/list:u:t6i2zefc]

All morale based, because I got nothing else.

[Ceetar]

• Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them.
• Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them.
• The lost faith in Collins.

All morale based, because I got nothing else.

Edgy DC wrote: My new pet theories, all both morale based:

I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle.

If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing.

[Frayed Knot]

This snapshot of the last 6 games probably provides as good an example as we need of our suckiness:

6 games w/9 runs scored in total
44 hits plus 17 walks -- a not very robust .220 BA and .280-ish OBA but not uniquely horrid for a small sample size and not something that should be 1.5 runs/game horrid

What kills things (Part 1) is that 36 of those hits were singles with 3 doubles & 3 HRs thrown in
What kills things (Part 2), as anyone who watched even a little could figure out, it was the (lack of) timing of those hits

- They were 5-for 43 (.116) with RiSP
- As bad as that was, only three of those five RiSP hits managed to knock in a run
- No hit scored more than one run as all 3 HRs were solos and 3 other hits (1 single, 2 doubles) knocked in a single run each
- The other 38 hits came either with bases-empty or with a man on 1st only

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them. Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them. The lost faith in Collins. All morale based, because I got nothing else. My new pet theories, all both morale based: I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle. If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing.

Hahahahaha! Right, Bay has something left, and they're broken up over losing a 5th starter.

I won't say the downturn coincides precisely with Bay's return, since I think they were exhibiting signs of a team that would struggle as early as the Cubs series prior to the ASB, but they played like absolute shit with him in the lineup and allegedly healthy. Christ, Vinny Rottino would have provided more wins than him.

I absoluetly think this team stopped believing in itself and for good reason: That the org had almost no interest in improving them was palpable and they must have realized by now that Terry's frequent admonitions to "play better or we'll find someone who will" was an empty threat.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Maybe they suck ...
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because they suck.

[Ceetar]

talking about from a athlete standpoint. Maybe it's wool over the eyes, but to accept that Bay will never hit again is to accept that you could wake up tomorrow and never hit again. So much of baseball is getting over and ignoring failure (the 3/10 thing) that I don't know if they look at Bay as an albatross (and it would be far from the most shocking thing if Bay had a good year next year, on any team)

And they didn't lose a "fifth starter" they lost a teammate. No different if the guy at your office who's not necessarily good at his job has a Triple Bypass or something and is out for three months.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Do you know how much pressure ML ballplayers are under? Especially the young guys who haven't hit free agency. Pressure to keep their jobs .. to demonstrate that they're everyday players ... so that they can one day sign an eight figure contract. And these guys, the Murphys and Tholes are pissing it all away, not from a lack of talent .... but because Dillon Gee is out for the season?

[bmfc1]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Maybe they suck ... because they suck.

Are you suggesting that it's just that the Mets have players with less talent and skill than other teams?

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Do you know how much pressure ML ballplayers are under? Especially the young guys who haven't hit free agency. Pressure to keep their jobs .. to demonstrate that they're everyday players ... so that they can one day sign an eight figure contract. And these guys, the Murphys and Tholes are pissing it all away, not from a lack of talent .... but because Dillon Gee is out for the season?

No, I'm saying it's more likely than quitting on Collins or Bay's return, and is maybe 1% of the overall reason and that I can see how it would be a little bit of a shot to the gut to lose a teammate/friend to a medical thing.

They suck because they're a combination of young/inexperienced, untalented, and slow to make adjustments to the adjustments other teams made off their first half success. But that's a boring reason.


Here's another random thought that probably means absolutely nothing. Are they swinging too hard? Have they got caught up in a lack of power that they swing too hard and often end up with bad contact and infield dribblers? Does that pressure you mention manifest itself in guys that may be on the cusp trying to boost their HR numbers thinking it'll earn them next years job?

[Edgy MD]

Watching the bullpen undo their best efforts broke them. Seeing Bay return to the lineup broke them. The lost faith in Collins. All morale based, because I got nothing else. My new pet theories, all both morale based: I doubt those things. While players may ponder guys sucking getting playing time, I think they're also sure that Bay could wake up one day and suddenly be good again. The "He's a good guy" bit doesn't fly with fans much, but I think it plays into the teammate angle. If it's morale based, I think it stems from losing Gee to a medical thing.

I doubt them too. My point is that, while I think this team is demoralized, I'm at a loss as to why that is and why that happened when it did. It's likely a large combination of things that shattered their faith (perhaps realistically) in their ability to keep playing at the level they had been.

I do know my guesses are at least as good as the one about "losing Gee to a medical thing."

[bmfc1]

Ceetar wrote: They suck because they're a combination of young/inexperienced, untalented, and slow to make adjustments to the adjustments other teams made off their first half success.

Yup.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I doubt them too. My point is that, while I think this team is demoralized, I'm at a loss as to why that is and why that happened when it did. It's likely a large combination of things that shattered their faith (perhaps realistically) in their ability to keep playing at the level they had been. I do know my guesses are at least as good as the one about "losing Gee to a medical thing."

sure.

Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things.


Here's a more interesting question (to me anyway)

Do you think any of this means anything about how the team will play when it shows up in April next year? Or is what we're seeing now the basis of the saying about how you can't trust what you see in September?

[Lefty Specialist]

The question regarding the offense isn't why it disappeared, but why it was actually scoring runs in the first place. One thing noted with frequency in the first half of the season was how many runs they scored with two outs. It was a statistical anomaly, and sure enough, it didn't last. There's a randomness factor to that.

Secondly, they have no power and no team speed. That makes it hard to score runs in bunches.

Thirdly, in the first half, there were guys who were contributing that you wouldn't have expected, like Nieuwenhuis, who was on a pretty good run initially until the league figured out how to pitch him, Hairston, Baxter and even Duda for a while. And David was flirting with .400. All these things flamed out in the second half (Baxter crunching his shoulder in the no-no didn't help).

This team has gaping holes. I don't think one player fixes the outfield. By my count, they need three outfielders, a real second baseman and a catcher. And most of a new bullpen. That's a tall order for Sandy to fill. He'll have to get creative.

[metirish]

How pathetic is the offense? , Christ Almighty, look at this from the UMDB.......home games

http://leaptoad.com/mets/gameresults.php


you can't win scoring so few runs obviously....


saw a blurb last night on SNY.....didn't pay a lot of attention but it was something about the Mets becoming one of four teams in like the last 50/100 years(wasn't paying attention) to score so few runs in consecutive home games.....something like that, wasn't good anyway...


Grim, how come when I link to what I am seeing in UMDB is goes to blank when I open the link?

[Ceetar]

Lefty Specialist wrote: The question regarding the offense isn't why it disappeared, but why it was actually scoring runs in the first place. One thing noted with frequency in the first half of the season was how many runs they scored with two outs. It was a statistical anomaly, and sure enough, it didn't last. There's a randomness factor to that. Secondly, they have no power and no team speed. That makes it hard to score runs in bunches. Thirdly, in the first half, there were guys who were contributing that you wouldn't have expected, like Nieuwenhuis, who was on a pretty good run initially until the league figured out how to pitch him, Hairston, Baxter and even Duda for a while. And David was flirting with .400. All these things flamed out in the second half (Baxter crunching his shoulder in the no-no didn't help). This team has gaping holes. I don't think one player fixes the outfield. By my count, they need three outfielders, a real second baseman and a catcher. And most of a new bullpen. That's a tall order for Sandy to fill. He'll have to get creative.

They also scored, statistically, way fewer runs with 1-out in the first half. So was no real reason to say a regression meant less runs. Nieuwenhuis and Duda were providing some power early. And while they didn't really have 'speed' exactly, Nieuwenhuis, Wright, Tejada, Bay, Hairston, Murphy, Baxter, Turner all probably possess something of average speed or so. certainly enough for most of them to routinely go first-third. Duda Ike and Thole are pretty slow, but I wonder if, particularly for Duda and Thole, if they're a little bit tentative on the bases too.

Maybe they need all that stuff. Maybe someone next year doesn't put up the exact same line as this year. (Thole for instance. concussion?) Murphy and Tejada are probably okay, at least in the sense that it's harder to find an upgrade and the upgrade wouldn't be as large.

I doubt we need three outfielders. It's too early to give up on Duda or Nieuwenhuis. Baxter/Hairston could probably be a good platoon or at least a good 20% of the playing time in a rotation of sorts. Maybe Torres..I dunno. He's probably could be a decent 4th OF and defensive replacement especially if Hairston and Duda might be in the corners on a given day.

[Benjamin Grimm]

metirish wrote: Grim, how come when I link to what I am seeing in UMDB is goes to blank when I open the link?

It's an HTML thing. That form is a POST instead of a GET.

[Vic Sage]

this thread took a turn somewhere.

my initial question was why were we so much worse offensively at home (the worst in the league) than on the road (near the top), when CitiField was playing as a slightly but not overly pitching-friendly park, and visiting teams were not suffering the same degree of impact playing here.

the only reasonable answers i got were "small sample size", but if 5/6ths of a season is a small sample size, than so is a season. And i'm willing to accept the proposition that an entire season is too small a sample size for the distinction between home/road production to be accurately assessed. But then "park factor" is meaningless, too, right?

Anyway, the question devolved into why the Mets suck overall and we started psychoanalyzing the players, the coaches, the gm, etc., but i don't think you need to get into ephemera to answer THAT question. The Mets suck because their players aren't good enough... many analysts said so before the season, and so did some folks here. And if they continue to suck next year, it won't be because they carried their hurt feelings over the medical condition of Dillon Gee into next April, but because they didn't have a significant turnover of personnel. And with so much of their projected payroll tied up in 4 or 5 players (depending on what they do with Dickey and Wright's final year contracts), such turnover seems likely to be an increase in rookies and castoff vets from other teams. Which doesn't bode well for a quick turnaround.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I agree. While I'd be quite happy to be pleasantly surprised, the most optimistic I can get at this point is to figure 2013 will be spent positioning the team for possible contention in 2014, when the contacts of Bay and Santana are gone.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things.

"Morale" speaks more to the condition of groups, rather than individuals.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: Everyone has a different thing that makes them tick, gets them motivated, makes them check out, etc. Some people bounce back better from it, some shake it off better. Shockingly, they're all human beings. They could be dealing with marital problems, a sick parent, a new kid, a nagging injury, depression, bed bugs, and any number of things. "Morale" speaks more to the condition of groups, rather than individuals.

groups don't think. it's a collection of different individuals with vastly different thoughts, and my point is that given the situation, many of these individuals have diverted focuses which affects the overall unity of the group.

and indeed, the group no longer has the same directive as a whole. We, and the Mets, and Terry, want to see different things from Lucas Duda than they do from Bobby Parnell and David Wright.

[Edgy MD]

Look up morale for me, please.

Thoughts and emotions do indeed have a way of infesting groups. Ask any survivors of the American embassy in Libya.

This is really, really silly when we have to open dictionaries.

[Lefty Specialist]

suck
verb \?s?k\
Definition of SUCK
transitive verb

4
slang : to be objectionable or inadequate

Origin of SUCK
Middle English suken, from Old English s?can; akin to Old High German s?gan to suck, Latin sugere
First Known Use: before 12th century
Related to SUCK
Synonyms: bite [slang], smell, stink [slang]
Antonyms: rock [slang], rule [slang]

[seawolf17]

I'm still pretty sure it's linked to wearing the black unis on John Franco night.

[G-Fafif]

Sucking and the toll it's taking on co-bloggers.

And won't somebody think of the children?

My kid, raised in a rabidly blue and orange household, increasingly doesn�t watch at all. He�d rather read, or play with Legos, or do anything else. I don�t bother arguing � watching Andres Torres once again forget how many outs there are isn�t exactly going to make him back into a fan. Joshua goes to sleep under a framed picture featuring shots of Reyes and Wright. We haven�t replaced the Reyes picture, because who would the replacement be? When Wright is also an anachronism, I suspect the picture will just come down, with no replacement at all.

[Edgy MD]

seawolf17 wrote: I'm still pretty sure it's linked to wearing the black unis on John Franco night.

That's my kind of answer.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

G-Fafif wrote: Sucking and the toll it's taking on co-bloggers. And won't somebody think of the children? My kid, raised in a rabidly blue and orange household, increasingly doesn�t watch at all. He�d rather read, or play with Legos, or do anything else. I don�t bother arguing � watching Andres Torres once again forget how many outs there are isn�t exactly going to make him back into a fan. Joshua goes to sleep under a framed picture featuring shots of Reyes and Wright. We haven�t replaced the Reyes picture, because who would the replacement be? When Wright is also an anachronism, I suspect the picture will just come down, with no replacement at all.

That was the saddest, most depressingly true piece I've ever seen outta either of youse two.

I took YoungerPooper to the 9/11 Dickey game, and found myself faking enthusiasm throughout the game for her... it was deflating.

[Vic Sage]

i refused to take my kids to any games this year; i didn't want to be charged with child abuse.