2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

[stevejrogers]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: no f*cking Fonzie My very first thought. Well, at least he won't be stiffed come January. My thing is... Phil Nevin over Fonzie? Eric Young? Hell, poor-man's-Eric-Young TONY WOMACK over Fonzie?

My own speculation, and this is based on the idea of Warren Spahn apparently getting the same treatment, is that he did spend time in the Independent Leagues and Japan from 2007 through 2010, and that could be the reason for not placing him on the ballot until 2015.

[nymr83]

Holy Shit!! The forum loads on my blackberry???? Hope you've missed me because now that I figured that out I may be posting again (I'm never home anymore)

My Ballot: Bagwell, Raines, Larkin, Trammell

NO to Morris, for the reasons Vic elegantly stated.
NO to Smith, I'm not ready to put a closer in.
NO to Martinez, I haven't gotten over the DH thing, but I do want to keep him on the ballot to have more time to think about him.

MAYBE to Walker, I want to look more closely at Walker's Road numbers when I can.

The steroid era happened, but I don't know how we seperate who did what and how to deal with those we know did it. I'll pass on the "guilty" (mcgwire, palmiero) for now and ignore accusations against guys where nothing has been shown.

[TransMonk]

Nice to see you, Nymr.

I agree with his selections.

[Theoldmole]

Bagwell, Larkin, Trammel.

[Edgy MD]

Nice to have you back, NYMR.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

If I had a vote, I would vote for these fellers:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

I'm a pretty liberal HOF voter.

[G-Fafif]

Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year.

I generally buy into Morris not quite being a Hall of Famer, but I recently watched MLBN's 20 Greatest Games presentation on Game Seven from the 1991 World Series (their choice for No. 2, ahead of Game Six, 1986 WS; behind Game Six, 1975 WS), and listening to Morris (with John Smoltz) reconstruct that night and talk about baseball in general made me want to hear him give an induction speech.

[stevejrogers]

G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year.

Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010.

[G-Fafif]

SteveJRogers wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010.

This will not happen.

[stevejrogers]

G-Fafif wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Fonzie won a Silver Slugger, was an All-Star and was praised every ten minutes by everyone who noticed him for a half-decade. Surely enough to rate one line on one ballot for one year. Which is why I'm thinking we'll see that in 2015, because he played professionally in 2010. This will not happen.

It took Warren Spahn more than 5 years after his last MLB game to appear on the BBWAA ballot because he played two more seasons in Mexico and in the St. Louis chain.

[G-Fafif]

Per the HOF:

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

Rickey Henderson played in the Atlantic League (Newark Bears) in 2004 and in the independent Golden Baseball League (San Diego Surf Dawgs) in 2005. He was on the 2009 ballot anyway, reflective of his final MLB game having been in 2003.

Rules have changed since Spahn's time.

[stevejrogers]

Ah. I stand corrected, and bumed out. Yeah, if Tony Womack is on the ballot, why isn't Alfonzo?

[dgwphotography]

Bagwell
Raines
Larkin
Trammell

Martinez? Half a player - nope.

McGwire & Palmiero? they can buy a ticket like everybody else...

[dgwphotography]

I know this is heresy in some parts around here, but I never got the love for Fonzie - he had a few good years, was about 5 years older then reported, and then got fat...

[Edgy MD]

Because:
[list:1boggrah][*:1boggrah]His "good" years were in fact easily the best years of any secondbaseman in Mets history. (And he has a significant legacy at third, too.)[/*:m:1boggrah]
[*:1boggrah]The only evidence of him being older was him being foreign and fading in his early thirties. (Nor would that negate his legacy.)[/*:m:1boggrah]
[*:1boggrah]He wasn't the only athlete in history to carry extra weight. It happens. Nor did his weight only appear later in his career.[/*:m:1boggrah][/list:u:1boggrah]

If you think that's the sum total of the Alfonzo story, you're not being fair. Why the love for any of them?

[Edgy MD]

Career WAR, as per BB-R.com:

Tony Womack: 1.2
Eric Young: 17.0
Edgardo Alfonzo: 28.4

[nymr83]

I don't think anyone is going to make an argument for Alfonzo in the HOF, but I am not sure why he isn't on the ballot. I remember MVP chants for him one August/September ('98?), I doubt that can be said for Womack or Young, he KILLS those guys on "peak" value.
Is there a criteria anywhere for the ballot? Who actually makes the decision as to which players appear on it?

[Edgy MD]

There is. They take anybody who plays ten years or more in the bigs, and then eliminate only those who spent the vast majority as reserves, or possibly bullpen backenders.

But those are few, and probably over 90% of those who clear the 10-year criterion make the ballot.

[dgwphotography]

• His "good" years were in fact easily the best years of any secondbaseman in Mets history. (And he has a significant legacy at third, too.)
• The only evidence of him being older was him being foreign and fading in his early thirties. (Nor would that negate his legacy.)
• He wasn't the only athlete in history to carry extra weight. It happens. Nor did his weight only appear later in his career.

If you think that's the sum total of the Alfonzo story, you're not being fair. Why the love for any of them?

Edgy DC wrote: Because:

Saying that his good years were easily the best years of any second baseman in Mets history isn't really saying much considering we never really had any one approaching Rogers Hornsby there. I think that's the issue - he looks so much better than anyone else there, because we really never had anyone that great there.

Actually, he started going down hill when he was "27". He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY.

[Frayed Knot]

He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY.

More like a complete reversal of that ratio.

In eight seasons as a Met:
- the first six of which he hit a combined .296/.370/.450. That's starting right out of the box (or out of AA if you prefer) as a 21 y/o. And maybe he wasn't 21 at the time although that's hardly been established.
- eliminate those rookie & soph seasons and years 3 thru 6 jump to .305/.389/.477
- go to the peak two seasons (#s 5 & 6) and you get: .313/.404/.520 w/69 & 67 XBHs in those two campaigns while walks were exceeding Ks
- only the final two were sub-par, falling a long way to .277/.358/.432

And he played GG-caliber defense at two different positions, neither one of which were the one he played for much of the minors.

At worst I'd say 2 great, 4 good, 2 lousy - and even those lousy ones were only so in comparison to what he already established and were really more like average-ish.

Put it this way, for a several years span in the late '90s when Jeter was at his peak and when his favorite "Bernie Baseball" was roaming CF in the Bronx, Francesa routinely called Fonzie the best player in NYC
The only problem with him was how suddenly and dramatically it ended.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

And anyway... the issue is that he looks better than any of the 3 second basemen-- or corner IF, save Bagwell and McGriff-- on the HOF ballot.

[Edgy MD]

dgwphotography wrote: Saying that his good years were easily the best years of any second baseman in Mets history isn't really saying much..

Yes it is saying much. The team is 50 years old. And it it's my team, it makes sense to make judgments about "the love" in that context.

dgwphotography wrote: ....considering we never really had any one approaching Rogers Hornsby there.

Is that to be our standard for appreciating players? Rogers Hornsby had 127.8 win shares in his career. Darryl Strawberry (I think) leads all Mets offensive players with 37.7. I think we can all agree that Edgardo Alfonzo does not tower over history as a Lord of Baseball. But come on.

dgwphotography wrote: I think that's the issue - he looks so much better than anyone else there, because we really never had anyone that great there.

Or anywhere, apparently. Why love at all?

dgwphotography wrote: Actually, he started going down hill when he was "27". He had 2, maybe 3 "good" years out of 8 in NY.

What's with the crazy quotes?

[nymr83]

When did Alfonzo's age become a question? Just because he got fat and stopped playing well pretty quickly?

[G-Fafif]

I never got the love for Fonzie

Re: "the love" -- Fonzie being the best 2B the Mets ever had (and one of the better 3B they ever had pre-Ventura and -Wright ) coincided with the Mets' ascension from mediocrities to contenders. I don't think it was a coincidence that once Alfonzo became an everyday player, the Mets improved steadily. Throw in that he was a dream in that "does all the little things" way, shuttled between positions as asked and went out in style (buying up ad space atop the caps to thank his fans after signing with San Fran once Phillips didn't bother trying to keep him) -- plus he was thoughtful enough to not come back to haunt us by being better after he left than he was when he was here -- and you have a Met whose halo is pretty sturdy.

My particular treasured memory: In June 1997, the Mets were playing the Pirates on Fox, having just recently proven themselves a capable ballclub (over .500, in the Wild Card hunt, days after Mlicki beat the MFYs) and McCarver, still part of the family, was telling Joe Buck that we may be looking at the best all-around third baseman in the National League right now. Buck was snottily dismissive until Fonzie hit the go-ahead homer in the bottom of the eighth, at which point he was all "ah, I see what you mean" to Tim. Aside from the home run and winning that game, just that sense of a Met sneaking up on people and showing we had somebody underrated for a change...stuff like that, that's where the love comes from.

Then again, Fonzie's not alone in Left Off The Ballot company from that Met era. On the 2009 ballot (the one that included Rickey Henderson) there was no mention of first-time eligibles Todd Hundley or Rick Reed, each a two-time Met All-Star, the former a franchise power-hitting record-holder, the other a mainstay on two postseason clubs who pitched well in each postseason.

Mike Bordick left off the same ballot, but screw him.

[Frayed Knot]

In June 1997, the Mets were playing the Pirates on Fox, having just recently proven themselves a capable ballclub (over .500, in the Wild Card hunt, days after Mlicki beat the MFYs) and McCarver, still part of the family, was telling Joe Buck that we may be looking at the best all-around third baseman in the National League right now.

Coincidentally, that was the last time the Pirates were on FOX.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Fonzie was cool. Potsie was a nerd.

Ayyyy

[nymr83]

Hundley never saw the ballot either? There's some MET HATE going on!

[batmagadanleadoff]

MLB needs a voting ballot to determine who gets on the HOF ballot.

[batmagadanleadoff]

G-Fafif wrote: On the 2009 ballot (the one that included Rickey Henderson) there was no mention of ... Rick Reed ... a two-time Met All-Star ... a mainstay on two postseason clubs who pitched well in each postseason.

I'm certain that Reed's inclusion on the 2009 ballot would have prompted some of the most ignorant and mean-spirited comments about Reed and his HOF eligibility.

[Edgy MD]

Other Mets who I think didn't get a spot on the ballot:

[list:1ne0zja2][*:1ne0zja2]Rey Ord��ez (nine seasons, three GGs, fifth in RoY)[/*:m:1ne0zja2]
[*:1ne0zja2]Bernard Gilkey (12 seasons, 14th place finish in MVP in 1996)[/*:m:1ne0zja2]
[*:1ne0zja2]Lance Johnson (14 seasons, one ASG, 18th place finishin MVP in 1996)[/*:m:1ne0zja2]
[*:1ne0zja2]Darryl Hamilton (13 seasons, three-time leader in fielding percentage among centerfielders)[/*:m:1ne0zja2][/list:u:1ne0zja2]

Things have just gone to blazes.