City Agency Hats NOW!!!! (split from Mets Uni Changes)

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

You argue FOR orange shirts and near-perpetual Mercury-Metsing, and yet THIS bothers you as an unwelcome intrusion of... what, exactly? Real life? History that cataclysmically changed the team's home city and actually involved Met participation?

[Fman99]

Can we just talk about cocks please? You fucking guys.

[Ceetar]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: You argue FOR orange shirts and near-perpetual Mercury-Metsing, and yet THIS bothers you as an unwelcome intrusion of... what, exactly? Real life? History that cataclysmically changed the team's home city and actually involved Met participation?

Keep politics and gods out of my baseball game. The wearing of the hats was like that then, now it seems like (to me, this is merely my opinion and my perception of it) a political thing. It feels like that city/country wide, not just in New York. People complain things like orange uniforms make them look like a softball team, but the service hats make them look like a beer league or a little league.

I was sorta tongue in cheek about the orange, but really as long as it says Mets on it (or implies it on the road via New York) I really don't care what they wear. Whatever they well promotes the brand in it's own way. It is the brand. wearing NYPD caps does not do that, and it doesn't lessen what the Mets did, or what the Mets do, in regards to respecting and honoring those people. One player visiting a fire house has more impact than 30ish guys wearing the FDNY hats.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

[G-Fafif]

If the Mets are going to wear a cap that isn't one of their three usual caps on September 11, they established the standard in the days after 9/11/01, for all the reasons CF stated. If I'd do anything to enhance the symbolism, I'd add a small orange Mets NY to one side or the back to illustrate solidarity -- it would explicitly state the Mets stand with the FDNY, the NYPD, the OEM, the PAPD and the other agencies the way their personnel stood with their fellow citizens in their city's darkest hour: we were all in this together and we're still all in this together.

I recall Joe Torre being asked during the 2001 postseason why they weren't doing what the Mets had done during games and the MFY excuse was the MFY insignia meant so much to so many. Ack. The Mets' NY means plenty to me, but it meant plenty more that they saw themselves as a part of something bigger when circumstances away from the ballpark demanded it.

The Stars & Stripes caps are a fine gesture from MLB on Memorial Day and the Fourth of July, if not always executed beautifully. They've done four iterations thus far and, in Met terms, I've found three of them incredibly unattractive. I bought the one I didn't think was too bad -- the 2010 white dome/blue bill model, to support Welcome Home Veterans. I like that MLB draws attention to this cause, though I wish they'd figure out a way to do it that didn't do a number on team identities (the Mets in red caps was an abomination). I take making each player look like he plays for the same team as a subtle message that we can't be trusted to love our country unless we all conform to one view.

I see Ceetar's point in the abstract -- slopes can be slippery and, to put it mildly, I've never felt comfortable being told to stand and remove whatever cap I'm wearing for "God Bless America" (I'm all for love of country; I can do without the religious pep rally aspect) -- but in New York, a decade out, for one home game in 81 I don't think it's an abstract situation.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: I see Ceetar's point in the abstract -- slopes can be slippery and, to put it mildly, I've never felt comfortable being told to stand and remove whatever cap I'm wearing for "God Bless America" (I'm all for love of country; I can do without the religious pep rally aspect) -- but in New York, a decade out, for one home game in 81 I don't think it's an abstract situation.

Given the choice I'd have them wear blue Mets caps, but I'm okay with it on the 10th anniversary, on this one very very specific occasion, and in a game MLB has already decided is going to be a spectacle/rememberance. I'm sure they'll talk more about the 2001 team than the 2011 team.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I see your point in principle... as regards the overtly political or religious in any inappropriate public arena.

But this sort of tribute is a celebration of people doing their public service jobs in a particular moment of civic crisis; if it stands for anything greater than that, it's people doing their difficult public service jobs in ANY moment of crisis (and maybe, as G put it, that baseball and the Mets are-- both ineffably and, when the situation demands, tangibly-- part of something "bigger").

Also... unlike a flag ceremony, or an original song for the occasion, or Mr. Met posing on some true-cross portion of the WTC i-beams, the cap thing is a recreation of something that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. It is perhaps the least contrived, least politically-charged*, least religiously-inflammatory way to celebrate a historic occurrence that directly impacted and involved not only every member of the fanbase, but the team, its members, and the stadium itself; the alternative is either ignoring it (or something so invisible as to be tantamount to ignoring it) or something stupidly compulsory, with plenty of flag-waving treacle.

If this is really all about principle, you should kick and scream about the war song they play before games before you raise any fuss over this proposal**.


*Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell's fiancee, and many others may differ as regards this, granted.
**Not an actual suggestion to picket or protest the national anthem.

[Vic Sage]

Keep politics and gods out of my baseball game.

Really? Well, I'm with you on this, so lets get started.

In addition to baseball-only caps, we have to get rid of the pre-game "star spangled banner" and color guard, the politician throwing out a 1st pitch, the 7th inning "god bless america", as well as the flags flown around the stadium. While we're at it, lets get that "42" out of the lobby and off the walls of every park, since its a celebration of a political act (integration). and no visit to the white house for the champions, either! and make sure there are no special celebrations in any park that honors veterans, or for any charitable (i.e., political) purpose. And those cultural celebration games... nope. multi-culturalism is an inherently political issue. And all teams that use a red, white & blue color scheme in their uniforms or stadia must be altered.

And make sure teams don't accept or pay anybody with money that says "in god we trust".

Let me know when we can start the revolution! Secular baseball in a bubble, untouched by the world! I'm so there...

oh, wait. you mean just the cap thing?
that's like being one of those pro-death penalty right-to-lifers. I say in for a penny, in for a pound, idealogically speaking.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: Keep politics and gods out of my baseball game. Really? Well, I'm with you on this, so lets get started. In addition to baseball-only caps, we have to get rid of the pre-game "star spangled banner" and color guard, the politician throwing out a 1st pitch, the 7th inning "god bless america", as well as the flags flown around the stadium. While we're at it, lets get that "42" out of the lobby and off the walls of every park, since its a celebration of a political act (integration). and no visit to the white house for the champions, either! and make sure there are no special celebrations in any park that honors veterans, or for any charitable (i.e., political) purpose. And those cultural celebration games... nope. multi-culturalism is an inherently political issue. And all teams that use a red, white & blue color scheme in their uniforms or stadia must be altered. And make sure teams don't accept or pay anybody with money that says "in god we trust". Let me know when we can start the revolution! Secular baseball in a bubble, untouched by the world! I'm so there... oh, wait. you mean just the cap thing? that's like being one of those pro-death penalty right-to-lifers. I say in for a penny, in for a pound, idealogically speaking.

not at all. Every single thing you mentioned happens between innings or before or after the game. I've accepted the gimmicky/entertainment nature of baseball and that there are going to be advertisements, sponsors, random people on the broadcast and throwing out first pitches and dunk tanks and pizza passes, 12 year old girls dancing on dugouts and mascot races. That baseball, and the individual franchises are going to use their following and viewership to promote whatever causes throw money their way or they feel is worthy. I even enjoy much of it and wait on line at Shake Shack and text my answers in for the in-game Mets trivia. But what I love is that if i want, i can usually sit there in my seat and tune the world out and watch my 27 outs and just my 27 outs and not worry about anything else.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: not at all. Every single thing you mentioned happens between innings or before or after the game.

I don't know how you can keep selectively reading and ignore facts to hang on to a position I don't think you're really committed to, but this is absolutely and unambiguously false.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: not at all. Every single thing you mentioned happens between innings or before or after the game. I don't know how you can keep selectively reading and ignore facts to hang on to a position I don't think you're really committed to, but this is absolutely and unambiguously false.

when was the last time they honored a serviceperson during the game inbetween batters?

seriously, what happens on the field during the game? what am I missing?

[Guest Edgy DC]

First of all between innings is such an absurdly arbitrary line. What takes place between innings is still baseball, it's still part of the game, is still an expression of the team, whether you like it or not.

But seriously? OK.

Flags are flown, during the game, including during innings.

Flags have been worn on uniforms, during the game, including during innings.

Jackie Robinson's number is displayed, during the game, including during innings.

Jackie Robinson's number is displayed in some parks on the wall and in play, during the game, including during innings.

Jackie Robinson's number is forsworn 161 games a year by all non-Riveran players, during the game, including during innings.

Jackie Robinson's number is worn one game a year by virtually all players, during the game, including during innings.

Red, white, and blue color schema, often in a deliberate appeal to Americanism, are worn by teams, during the game, including during innings.

Many things he didn't mention go on constantly: players wear their flags or their religious symbols on jewelry and tattoos. They come to bat with "Proud to be a American with Bad Taste" (or hymns, in the case of Julio Franco and the like) blasting from the speakers. They cross themselves when coming to the plate. They point to the sky in the midst of success in thanks for their God-given gifts.

But you've drawn the line on this issue, where the expression came not from authoritarian source ordering them how to express themselves, but from the heart of the players, in defiance of the authorities, and in fealty with their city. Everyday, they wear the insignia of the city they represent on their hats --- an expressly political statement, if a flaccid one --- and one day they were about to take the field, and Rey Ordonez decides he really wanted to represent the city, knowing that the hearts of all the city are with the ones who gave their lives for it. It was perfect. And every player instantly knew it, and fell in line.

Me, I wait years for expressions of moving substance to arise from the too often morally empty vessel of professonal sports.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Me, I wait years for expressions of moving substance to arise from the too often morally empty vessel of professonal sports.

Again, i'm not talking about the 9..21? game. I'm talking about now, about every year. None of the players are even the same. teams are transient. These aren't the same guys. Let's throw all the other stuff out for now. I have problems with some of it, I disagree with some of it, and I don't mind or even like some of it. But that's not what this is about.

And it's merely my opinion. I gave Rubin's email address and answered the question about contacting guys. I'm not trying to prevent it or think you're wrong for wanting this. I just don't. I don't think it's a moving statement, like it was then. It's a calculated forced effort. That's not Rey Ordonez trotting out to SS, it's Jose Reyes. If anything it makes it worse to me. It takes something that was moving and special in a horrible time and generalizes it.

I'd prefer they wear regular caps and honor those people in other ways..which they're doing.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I know it's not 2011 anymore. I know it's Jose Reyes. I think we all know that. But an expression of fealty is made more powerful in its continued observance.

What was forced was not the continuance, but the discontinuance. The players didn't take a vote to stop wearing the hats. They stopped because they were told to make their expression dovetail with the league's coordinated expression.

But you keep moving the goalposts here. Your demand for purifying the game is shown to be demonstrably unmanageable, and you don't care, because none of that stuff happens on the field during the game. I make clear that plenty of it does, and it's like, well, you're not really talking about that anyway.

[Lefty Specialist]

My guess is that MLB has specially-tailored hats for the occasion. Something like a yellow ribbon and 9-11-01 on it. That's why they won't wear city agency hats. Just my guess, YMMV.

[Vic Sage]

Many things he didn't mention go on constantly: players wear their flags or their religious symbols on jewelry and tattoos. They come to bat with "Proud to be a American with Bad Taste" (or hymns, in the case of Julio Franco and the like) blasting from the speakers. They cross themselves when coming to the plate. They point to the sky in the midst of success in thanks for their God-given gifts.

thanks, edgy. yeah, lets get that stuff out of here. No hymns, dammit! this is the church of baseball! and they should only be able to wear as much overtly religious or political jewelry as they can reasonably swallow. and the only lord they can look up to thank are the lords of baseball in their luxury suites.

please, Ceetar, we of the AAB (Apolitical Atheists for Baseball) need you on this.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: Many things he didn't mention go on constantly: players wear their flags or their religious symbols on jewelry and tattoos. They come to bat with "Proud to be a American with Bad Taste" (or hymns, in the case of Julio Franco and the like) blasting from the speakers. They cross themselves when coming to the plate. They point to the sky in the midst of success in thanks for their God-given gifts. thanks, edgy. yeah, lets get that stuff out of here. No hymns, dammit! this is the church of baseball! and they should only be able to wear as much overtly religious or political jewelry as they can reasonably swallow. and the only lord they can look up to thank are the lords of baseball in their luxury suites. please, Ceetar, we of the AAB (Apolitical Atheists for Baseball) need you on this.

There's certainly a difference between a personal choice to wear a cross or play a song. But just that you've connected flags to religious symbols is part of my problem. You don't have to be religious or pray during the 7th inning to be patriotic. And just because i don't like the hats doesn't mean I'm apolitical or atheist, even if I trend in that direction.

They won't wear the hats. They're going to abide by the MLB rules and wear the stupid Stars and Stripes hats. The players aren't looking to make a statement by bucking that trend in this way. I'm sure they could compromise. Wear them through the Anthem and then switch to the 'correct' hat, or hold them during the 7th inning stretch and then toss them to fans. They're not going to, but if they did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd just prefer they were wearing plain Mets hats and not mixing issues.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: But just that you've connected flags to religious symbols is part of my problem.

It's amazing how you keep shifting on this. You explicitly made the connection. We're just responding.

Keep politics and gods out of my baseball game.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: But just that you've connected flags to religious symbols is part of my problem. It's amazing how you keep shifting on this. You explicitly made the connection. We're just responding. Keep politics and gods out of my baseball game.

neither of those things relates to patriotism.

[Guest Edgy DC]

[Ceetar]

What do you want from me? Why is it just a problem that I don't like the hats and wish they wouldn't wear them (they're not anyway) for my own reasons?

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's too late. I'm dead.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: It's too late. I'm dead.

so are the 2011 Mets, but we're talking about them still.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Nats ask MLB to wear Navy Seals caps. Nats get shut down.

linky.

[G-Fafif]

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Nats ask MLB to wear Navy Seals caps. Nats get shut down. linky.

Well, yeah. The night the Nats were SEALs caps might be the night some kid isn't inspired to ask his parents to buy him that Nats cap he hadn't realized he so badly wanted until he saw it on Alex Cora's head. Good job, MLB.

[TransMonk]

Metsblog says:

�John Franco will throw out the ceremonial first pitch to Mike Piazza during the September 11 remembrance ceremony before the Mets host the Cubs at Citi Field,� the team just announced.

The team says they will mark the 10th anniversary of September 11 by honoring the memory of those lost and injured, and celebrating the heroes, survivors and rescue and recovery workers before that day�s game. In addition, the Mets will again pay tribute to New York City�s uniformed service men and women by wearing caps representing their organizations.

According to the team, they will be releasing more details of their September 11 remembrance ceremony in the coming days.

[seawolf17]

I kinda want to go, but I'm singing at our regular Sunday service that morning as well as at the community interfaith 9/11 service that night.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Metsblog says: �John Franco will throw out the ceremonial first pitch to Mike Piazza during the September 11 remembrance ceremony before the Mets host the Cubs at Citi Field,� the team just announced. The team says they will mark the 10th anniversary of September 11 by honoring the memory of those lost and injured, and celebrating the heroes, survivors and rescue and recovery workers before that day�s game. In addition, the Mets will again pay tribute to New York City�s uniformed service men and women by wearing caps representing their organizations. According to the team, they will be releasing more details of their September 11 remembrance ceremony in the coming days.

[TransMonk]

Not sure where to put this.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/08/sports.on.9.11/index.html

[ashie62]

TransMonk wrote: Not sure where to put this. http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/08/sports.on.9.11/index.html

Steve Politi gets picked up by CNN, he will be even more unbearable.