What's Up Angel Pagan's Ass?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Bad hitting, bad fielding, bad decision-making. He's going for the Triple Crown of suck so far.

[Ceetar]

He's a good player (regardless of 'how good', he's better than this).

I think he's pressing, and if Bay is indeed back I wouldn't be opposed to him sitting on Tuesday.

[Guest themetfairy]

I think he's adjusting to being one of the featured players and he's not yet used to that pressure.

[G-Fafif]

Dismayed by R.A. Dickey revealing winter plans, assumed season was already over.

[Gwreck]

Somewhere between choices 1 and 3.

[Frayed Knot]

I would have forgiven/understood one bunt today on account of him being in a funk and all, but he was really pushing it with two.
Not that the effed-up second one wasn't more Davis's fault then his.
Wonder if Terry called for either or both of them?

[Fman99]

I think he hates Hu. It's just random enough to make sense.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I would like to hear from the last-year-was-a-mirage crowd.

I wouldn't mind a wife swap, either. Saucy!

[metirish]

great choices ....went with switch positions with Beltran.....

[Guest The Second Spitter]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I would like to hear from the last-year-was-a-mirage crowd.!

Because .375 career slugging after 10 seasons in the minors compels one to draw the opposite conclusion?

[ashie62]

themetfairy wrote: I think he's adjusting to being one of the featured players and he's not yet used to that pressure.

That.

[Vic Sage]

I would like to hear from the last-year-was-a-mirage crowd.

i won't bother with writing new words on the subject, but here's what i said in the "all optimism" thread before the season started:

Yes, lets pretend he's an established full-time player, instead of being a part-time player for 4 years and a full timer for 1, with a 100+ point career differential in OPS vs LHPers and 2800+ minor league PAs with an OPS just barely over .700. Because otherwise it would interfere with the rose tinting of your glasses.

[Ceetar]

You could certainly point to his splits, but no matter how you spin his 1000+ AB with the Mets as 'flukish one season" he's not going to go the entire season without a hit against a lefthander. Although he's gotten on base 4 times in 17 AB. Of course, that sample size is basically worthless to draw any conclusions from. (Not that the 16 game sample is that much better) But he's way below even his Cubs numbers, so it's silly to think he won't do better than that, though I wish he wasn't bringing his troubles out to the field as they say.

Wandy Rodriguez is a lefty, if Bay is back, maybe you let Hairston have a start in center and let Pagan have two days off. Also, why is Wandy Rodriguez a switch-hitter?

[seawolf17]

I chose "teh suck." I'm with Vic; I think we put way too many eggs in the Pagan Basket.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

When Pagan came to this team, everybody was saying he was a nice upgrade on Endy. A few gallons of kool-aid later, fans had him pegged for the next Beltran.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Guest

[TransMonk]

Gwreck wrote: Somewhere between choices 1 and 3.

This. And it will also apply to a similar Dickey poll that gets thrown up in a couple weeks.

[seawolf17]

TransMonk wrote: And it will also apply to a similar Dickey poll that gets thrown up in a couple weeks.

As will my answer.

[TransMonk]

Yup.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm always disappointed to read or hear the Baseball establishment include Pagan in the mix of best Mets. It reminds me of the bad de Roulet years when Youngblood and Stearns vied for best Met vet. It's not a perfect analogy but it's close enough. I see Pagan as a 4th outfielder and if he's a best Met candidate, the team's in big trouble. I probably said this about a jillion times already but I'll say it again, mainly because I've yet to hear it from the media -- but Pagan murders the Mets against LHP.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: You could certainly point to his splits, but no matter how you spin his 1000+ AB with the Mets as 'flukish one season" he's not going to go the entire season without a hit against a lefthander.

You're accusing someone else of spinning things here?

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: You could certainly point to his splits, but no matter how you spin his 1000+ AB with the Mets as 'flukish one season" he's not going to go the entire season without a hit against a lefthander. You're accusing someone else of spinning things here?

Because no one's doing it?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: You could certainly point to his splits, but no matter how you spin his 1000+ AB with the Mets as 'flukish one season" he's not going to go the entire season without a hit against a lefthander. You're accusing someone else of spinning things here? Because no one's doing it?

Who?

[Ceetar]

I state that he's better than he's shown in 16 games because his numbers are worse than all his numbers everywhere, and that he'll get at least one hit off a left-handed pitcher this year and I'm the one spinning things?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: I state that he's better than he's shown in 16 games because his numbers are worse than all his numbers everywhere, and that he'll get at least one hit off a left-handed pitcher this year and I'm the one spinning things?

Pagan is an asset against LHP because he won't go hitless against them?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm sure Pagan is better than he's been for the first 16 games.

The question, however, is whether he's good enough to be an everyday centerfielder for a team that hopes to be competitive.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Even if Pagan's not an everyday outfielder, he still brings a lot to the table. He does enough things well enough that he's an asset if used properly. But I wouldn't want him at the top of the lineup against lefties just like I wouldn't want to see David Wright converted to a relief pitcher.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

The Second Spitter wrote: When Pagan came to this team, everybody was saying he was a nice upgrade on Endy. A few gallons of kool-aid later, fans had him pegged for the next Beltran.

Well, yeah, that's a little silly. But so is relying entirely on minor-league slugging numbers to predict major-league performance when he's got 1500+ major-league PAs available for reference. Yeah, he didn't hit with much/any power in the minors. And during last year's "breakthrough," he slugged .425, which is higher than the sub-.400 numbers he put up for minimum-wage. But over 1533 major-league plate chances, dude's slugging .427; power-wise, last year was right in line with what he does-- he just did it more, and while playing a solid CF to boot.

If you want to point to 2009 as the outlier, fine. But expecting a .340 OBP and .420 SLG out of him-- numbers which, out of a CF, would justify the sort of fan optimism you're talking about-- is entirely reasonable, no? Take him out against tough lefties once or twice a week, and you've got the potential for some gaudy numbers for a prime defensive position, no?

If you were Collins/Alderson, and you cared to acquire/plug in a demi-lefty-killing backup center fielder every 4-5 games, I'd be in favor of it. But who's that guy on the roster/system now? Hell, who's that guy in the league-- reasonably-priced CF backup who murders lefties-- now? Wanna put Matt Diaz in center? Overpay Cody Ross?

[Gwreck]

Nick Evans platoon with Angel Pagan. Beltran (or hell, maybe even Bay) plays center on the days when Evans is in the starting lineup.

[seawolf17]

I know the "fan base" would have mutinied, but I would have traded Pagan this offseason, and said so at the time. But that's just me.

[Ceetar]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: If you were Collins/Alderson, and you cared to acquire/plug in a demi-lefty-killing backup center fielder every 4-5 games, I'd be in favor of it. But who's that guy on the roster/system now? Hell, who's that guy in the league-- reasonably-priced CF backup who murders lefties-- now? Wanna put Matt Diaz in center? Overpay Cody Ross?

As you point out, there aren't a ton of those guys available. It's not exactly 'killing' but Hairston has an .820 OPS against lefties and plays center. SLG .492. 27 homers in about a years worth of PA. He _is_ that guy, which is why they gave him a major league contract. Bay's injury and Harris' sort of hot start seems to have changed how Collins plays the outfield, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Hairston in center on Tuesday.