tell me about your feeeeeeelings

[metsmarathon]

the phillies just signed cliff lee. he's old for a pitcher. he's also a year younger than me. so that makes me sad. but we're not talking about those kind of feelings.

i want to know your feelings about this signing. as i said, cliff lee is old. roy oswalt is older. older than me, even. by a whole month. and roy halladay? he's friggin ancient, with some 4 months on me. and lee and halladay are signed for quite a while there, for quite a bit of money. roy makes $20 mil in each of the next three seasons, and cliff averages $24 mil for the next five. add in ryan howard, who is grossly overpaid, and you've got a potential for a few albatrosses just down the turnpike.

granted, they've now got the best paper rotation in the game. and their offense, while not nearly what it used to be, is still fairly threatening.

so they're most likely the current favorites for hte world series. and that can't make you feel great.

but enough of my ramblings. what do you think?

[metsmarathon]

i'm happy, but wary. i'm glad the mets aren't the team that threw all this money at another pitcher. i had been worried the rangers would get him and cripple their franchise for another ten years. i was really hoping he'd go to the yankees, and be there for 8 years. but i can live with the phillies for 5 years. if it were a longer deal, it'd have an even greater chance of being an albatross for even longer, but by the time the deal is through, today will not be looked upon as a happy day in the city of brotherly love.

i hope...

[Valadius]

All of their stars are on the wrong side of 30. They're gonna get old, fast. And one of them will likely get caught taking steroids up the butt.

[metirish]

My overriding feelings are of elation that the MFY's didn't get him and throwing the most money at a player for once didn't work. Their fans were so cocksure that Lee would be coming, so as much as anything this is a fuck you to them.


I am also cognizant that the NL East just got that much tougher but I feel that we have the right men in place to build our team in to real contenders. I am confident that Sandy Alderson and his group are not quaking in their boots at this and for that I am happy.

[Guest themetfairy]

We're screwed. Severely.

And since I live in the vortex, with Phillies phans prevalent, my life is going to be horrible.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think at some point, teams reach a limit of how good or how shitty they can be. The Phils theoretically are pushing the top end of that limit but it's not like they're going to go out and win 130 games.

Their O could be a challenge some nights, and asking any 3 post-30 pitchers to be healthy all year is a risk, they had better get the bullpen right, etc etc etc

And if they fall short with this group, then maybe the whole thing collapses.

Oh, but AWESOME job keeping Lee away from the MFYs.

[seawolf17]

The best case scenario for a Lee signing, in order of preference, was this:

Red Sox (to screw the Yankees)
Any other AL team (to keep him out of the NL and screw the Yankees)
Yankees (because their fans are insufferable gits)
Mets (a lot of money, but he would undoubtedly have helped)
Any NL Central/West team (to keep him out of the division)
Marlins (because it would have eaten their whole payroll, which only would have forced them to trade him to one of the above teams in a few years)
Nationals (because they suck)
Braves (because they're otherwise not that scary)
Phillies (fuckin' hell)

It's definitely a worst-case scenario for us, at least for the short term. We can hope that he'll get old and/or hurt, but that's all we've got. And if he does get old/hurt, we have to hope they don't Yankee Up and just sign more guys who will kick our asses. I'm going "sad, but hopeful."

[batmagadanleadoff]

For going-forward comparisons, Cliff Lee's only half a year older than Johan Santana, and isn't coming off three straight seasons of surgery.

[Ceetar]

metsmarathon wrote: granted, they've now got the best paper rotation in the game. and their offense, while not nearly what it used to be, is still fairly threatening.

I disagree. I actually think the Mets have a better offense. Since we're playing the game on paper right now anyway, Beltran's going to have a good year, as is Bay. Davis and Thole both take steps forward. None of these things are unreasonable either. On the Phillies side, Rollins was never that good, had a career year and two bad ones since. I expect a similiar '09-'10 from him. Utley may be injury prone and is an aging second baseman. Their outfield is iffy. Victorino has good numbers for a CFer, but it's not exactly scary numbers, Ibanez is old and breaking down ,and they literally don't have a RF. They were considering Frenchy there! It's unlikely Brown comes up and is Jason Heyward.

It makes things more difficult for 2011, but who knows what can happen? one or two key injuries has proven to send the Phillies into slumps in the past, their offense, even when it was better, disappeared for weeks. They routinely start slow. And when midseason comes and the mets are wheeling and dealing and getting Santana back and the Phillies are standing pat and adding guys like Alex Cora to fill in for Rollins who is hurt?

[metirish]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: For going-forward comparisons, Cliff Lee's only half a year older than Johan Santana, and isn't coming off three straight seasons of surgery.

Batmag, always available to brighten your day

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: For going-forward comparisons, Cliff Lee's only half a year older than Johan Santana, and isn't coming off three straight seasons of surgery.

If you had to decide today, who would you rather have on your team for 2011 ... Lee or Santana? How about for the next two seasons? Lee or Santana?

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: For going-forward comparisons, Cliff Lee's only half a year older than Johan Santana, and isn't coming off three straight seasons of surgery. Batmag, always available to brighten your day

Just being honest. Bring back Johnny Olerud and I'll create for you, another Sun.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: For going-forward comparisons, Cliff Lee's only half a year older than Johan Santana, and isn't coming off three straight seasons of surgery.

That's encouraging when you think of all the World Series' championships Johan Santana brought to the Mets.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's encouraging to think that Yankee fans might have blown it for their team.

[Valadius]

Edgy DC wrote: It's encouraging to think that Yankee fans might have blown it for their team.

Yes, I really do hope some of the columnists dwell on that and cause some introspection.

Oh, who am I kidding? This will fly over their heads.

[batmagadanleadoff]

If that's the main reason why Lee spurned the Yankees offer and left almost $20M on the table, then the Lees are idiots.

[metsmarathon]

no, they'll be self-congratulatory for chasing away another weak soul who would've been incapable of withstanding the pressure and the bright lights and the blistering stupidity of the big city.

[Guest Edgy DC]

And perhaps double down on the abuse.

[Guest Edgy DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If that's the main reason why Lee spurned the Yankees offer and left almost $20M on the table, then the Lees are idiots.

What would be a good reason?

[seawolf17]

metsmarathon wrote: no, they'll be self-congratulatory for chasing away another weak soul who would've been incapable of withstanding the pressure and the bright lights and the blistering stupidity of the big city.

True, because Philadelphia fans are diehards who stay with you through thick and thin, and always take the high road. They're known for their polite golf claps and encouraging "tally ho, you'll get him next time!" cheers when one of the hometown heroes strikes out.

[Lefty Specialist]

Mrs. Lee better not make any further trips to Yankee Stadium, because they'll do unspeakable things.

[metsmarathon]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If that's the main reason why Lee spurned the Yankees offer and left almost $20M on the table, then the Lees are idiots.

depending on how the two contracts were structured, that 20 mil way down the road is not worth nearly as much as it sounds. mind you, i'm not at all good at calculating then-year dollars vs current-year dollars, but accounting for inflation, he didn't leave all that much value out there.

besides, it's not like you or i leaving 20 mil on the table. he's opted for 15% lower total dollars. it's less than 10% in terms of value, and might be less than 5%. you couldn't imagine choosing one job with what you perceived to be a better personal situation over another that offered a 5%, or even 10%, higher salary?

[bmfc1]

Any joy that I have that the MFYs didn't get him is secondary to the fact that Lee's in the Mets division which means that they'll face him about six times this season. Yes, it's too much and too long but the MFPs should be a great team in '11 and '12. Sandy has a Plan, and I'm optimistic about '12 and beyond, but this season's gonna suck. Hopefully the MFPs age will catch up to them soon (Victorino is 30, Polanco 35, Utley 31, Howard 31, Ibanez 38).

[batmagadanleadoff]

metsmarathon wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: If that's the main reason why Lee spurned the Yankees offer and left almost $20M on the table, then the Lees are idiots. besides, it's not like you or i leaving 20 mil on the table.

It's a lot of money, no matter who's getting it. A person can always find ways to spend it. More money to take care of relatives. Maybe he'll want to buy a minor league team in 20 years. Or a fancy vacation home. And a fancy vacation home for the kids. Or he takes a big hit on a future investment and the extra millions that he rejected, perhaps solely to exact revenge for an insult, would've given him an extra hedge, or layer of security.

[Vic Sage]

bmfc1 wrote: Any joy that I have that the MFYs didn't get him is secondary to the fact that Lee's in the Mets division which means that they'll face him about six times this season. Yes, it's too much and too long but the MFPs should be a great team in '11 and '12. Sandy has a Plan, and I'm optimistic about '12 and beyond, but this season's gonna suck. Hopefully the MFPs age will catch up to them soon (Victorino is 30, Polanco 35, Utley 31, Howard 31, Ibanez 38).

this, exactly.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Victorino's not only 30, but coming back down to earth. Utley's had health problems-- non-trauma-related, but chronic-y stuff-- for each of the last three years. I wouldn't trade Reyes' legs/trunk for Rollins' legs/trunk if you threw in Dominic Brown. Ibanez is old, getting older, and not nearly as good-- not now, but not as good, period-- as he was for the first half of 2009. Polanco and Howard are pains, but pains one can live with... especially at Howard's price. In short, there's a reason they had to load up on pitching last fall-- their offense is video-game-good but very creaky, and getting creakier.

They're on the hook for a little over 168 million for next year, with 6-7 roster spots yet to be filled. That number's 92 million through 2012... before adding Cliff Lee and an arb increase for Cole Hamels... before resigning/replacing SS/LF (assuming Domonic Brown holds/performs in the RF starting role for cheap)... and that's a total of eight players.

Through 2013? They're obligated to pay out 80 million... to four players. (This is a team, mind you, that sells buttloads of tickets and merch... but doesn't have its own cable network, and won't have one any time soon.)

Plus, having driven into work late today, I caught a little bit of call-in MFY fan angst. Bracing and delicious, let me tell you... I may just check out Francesa online this afternoon, that's how delicious. I'm feeling a mitigated, wary sort of happy, but happy.

[bmfc1]

Francesa's off today.

[Ceetar]

bmfc1 wrote: Francesa's off today.

but you do get Beltran on with Evan and Joe (who pretty much defines #blamebeltran) so that can be interesting.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Doesn't feed my hate-craving, though, consarnit.

[Fman99]

Mets fans, taking it in the pooper. And not in the good way.