Arguing with the Umpire

[Centerfield]

Weigh in now!!!!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Pointless.

I get the "clubhouse reasons" to do it. I just don't generally buy them.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I was actually thinking that this team, and thje home crowds, could use a lesson in intensity from Jerry and that's one of the ways you can demonstrate it. They just need a call not to go their way.

PS, I love the whole theater of manager-umpire fights, though I am sure they matter very little in the long run.

[metirish]

The old manager form Baltimore did it good.....Weaver?.....some classic youtubes of him at it.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I enjoy the theater of it as well... but I'm generally laughing at the participants, not with them. I find that enjoyment outweighed by annoyance when it's our guy doing the arguing. It's more fun to watch Pinella or Baker play the red-assed oaf.

[Guest holychicken]

I am kind of in between the bottom two choices.

I think it should only be used in important situations, but I also think it awesome and gives your players some confidence, fires them up and, just as importantly, it shows the dumbass fans that the manager actually cares. I do think it pumps everyone up. Granted, if you pump people up too much, they ASPLODE!!!! but I do think that it is a good thing to use on occasion.

Plus, it is entertaining, so from a purely spectator's position, I like it.

[nymr83]

i'm cool with it, especially when i'm pissed off at a bad call its nice to see our manager out there arguing about it, since i cant yell at the ump myself.

i dont want to see players doing it though, no need to get tossed.

[metirish]

I enjoy the theater of it as well... but I'm generally laughing at the participants, not with them. I find that enjoyment outweighed by annoyance when it's our guy doing the arguing. It's more fun to watch Pinella or Baker play the red-assed oaf.

Yeah , imagine if this was our guy.....simulating throwing bombs....

[Benjamin Grimm]

Except for the rare cases where I think there's some point of order that might actually get the umps to change their minds, I'm generally thinking, "Sit down and shut up so the game can continue."

[metirish]

I remember one game where Valentine got the umpire to change a call.....IIRC he knew the rule and they didn't.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

There's lots of reasons to argue -- sometimes just for show for the fans, sometimes just for show for your players, sometimes to keep your star from getting tossed, sometimes because you just gotta yell at someone.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm not sure the answer is there for me. If you think the umpires are derelict, I guess you've got to make your point known. Perhaps they are (1) ignoring their procedures, (2) seemingly deliberately ignoring the obvious evindence before their eyes, or (3) flat and not engaged in the game.

But trying to gain an edge by showing them up in a cockfight embarasses me, and I don't want my guy doing it. This is something Willie took seriously, and I suspect he honestly meant, like Jackie, to carry himself and project a demeanor on field that would make it easier for the black managers who followed him.

I acknowledge that some of the greatest managers --- McGraw, Weaver --- were umpire baiters, but many weren't. I'd like to someday see a manager whose team is really getting robbed (like in the World Series with Whitey's 1985 Cardinals or Bobby's 2000 Mets) have the stones pull his players off the field, and force the league to choose between a justifiably aggrieved team or a grossly negligent ump.

[ashie62]

My favorte non-Mets manager of All time is Earl Weaver..so...

[Ceetar]

Never want players to do it though, especially pitchers, although maintaining a dialogue is important. (That was low, or outside?) to get a feel for things.

If you're at the game tonight, or another night, take a look at what the players do. Often Wright, and Santana, when they jog out to take their places converse with the umpires first. I find Wright talks to the third base ump pretty often.

I have no idea if this has any real benefit, but being on the "good side" of an umpire can't hurt.

[batmagadanleadoff]

[Gwreck]

metirish wrote: I remember one game where Valentine got the umpire to change a call.....IIRC he knew the rule and they didn't.

I believe that was this game.

---

I am strongly in favor of arguing with the umpires. It is my perception that mistakes by umpires largely go unchecked and while they do make the vast majority of calls correctly, there are plenty of missed calls and little or no accountability for umpires who perform poorly.

Accordingly, arguing with umpires is -- in my opinion -- essential. They absolutely should be challenged when they make mistakes and it drives me crazy when Jerry (or Willie, or whomever) doesn't get their ass out of the dugout quickly to argue calls. There's obvious drawbacks to having a player argue (ejection, suspension, etc.) but essentially none to having your manager argue, unless you think Chip Hale can't be trusted to run the team for the last 4 innings of a game.

I remember flipping through John Feinstein's book about Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina's 2007 season, and there was a revealing passage about what transpired in this game (IGT) (Retrosheet). Tony Randazzo had made several bad calls against the Mets in the series, and after a close play at first, Willie went out to argue.

In the book, Feinstein reveals that what Willie said to the umpire was "tell me you missed the call, and I'll just go back to the dugout." Randazzo refused, claimed he got the call right (when of course he totally blew it) and that's what set Willie off and caused him to use the magic word.

I thought that was a really good way of handling things by Willie (in that particular instance) and I'd sure like to see some similar fire out of Jerry. A slot trot out of the dugout and a friendly chat with the umpire isn't cutting it.

[Gwreck]

Edgy DC wrote: I'd like to someday see a manager whose team is really getting robbed (like in the World Series with Whitey's 1985 Cardinals or Bobby's 2000 Mets) have the stones pull his players off the field, and force the league to choose between a justifiably aggrieved team or a grossly negligent ump.

One of my biggest wishes too. The lax umpiring/different rules in the postseason drives me particularly crazy.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: I'd like to someday see a manager whose team is really getting robbed (like in the World Series with Whitey's 1985 Cardinals or Bobby's 2000 Mets) have the stones pull his players off the field, and force the league to choose between a justifiably aggrieved team or a grossly negligent ump. One of my biggest wishes too. The lax umpiring/different rules in the postseason drives me particularly crazy.

Hey, if they're ever worried about WS ratings, that would surely help.

The Bobby game text from the gamelog:

"METS 4TH: Zeile singled to left; Payton flied to center; Ordonez
doubled to left [Zeile to third]; Appier reached on a fielder's
choice [Ordonez out at third (shortstop to catcher)]; Flo Mgr
Perez ejected by Danley. Umpires originally called both out,
then ruled that Zeile could return to 3rd. Perez was ejected for
arguing the reversal; McEwing doubled to left [Zeile scored,
Appier to third]; Relaford struck out; 1 R, 3 H, 0 E, 2 LOB.
Marlins 1, Mets 2.
"

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

batmagadanleadoff wrote:

Wow. Debate ended with one photo. Nice one!

[seawolf17]

As a kid, I loved reading the Ron Luciano books, so I love a good umpire fight. Plus I loved watching Bobby trace the steps in the dirt during that BS interference call.

I guess I don't know how much, realistically, it really "fires up" the team. I've never quite understood that piece of the logic. But if it works, then cool. Certainly fires up the crowd.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think it's out there that the Mets crowd needs some firing up (the team does too, but you can't necessarily count on that). C'mon Jerry, pick a fight.

I no see Batmag's photo.

I'm surprised to learn there was anything interesting in that Feinstein book.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Gwreck and youse have offered a better, much more well-considered set of points*... and convincing ones, at that. As I'm no Angel-Hernandez-class horse's ass-- at least, not this afternoon-- I'll politely join the majority vote.

*Drawing on Feinstein, no less. Heh.

[Guest themetfairy]

Warranted on occasion. The manager needs to pick his battles.