Ask Hal, the Referee

[Benjamin Grimm]

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Hal's answer to Ted Whitcomb:

="Hal the Referee"] The runner must tag up and START FROM CONTACT WITH THE BASE AFTER THE BALL IS CAUGHT. Thus, what you described is illegal retouching and if the defense appeals, the runner should be called out. I never saw this attempted, but I understand Eddie Stanky did it in the majors. He would get behind third to obtain a running start. As a result of his clever footwork, the rule was changed, making it illegal. Here's a case where you must rev your motors while your brakes are still on.

As I said earlier, I'll stop here, for now. When we get into November (if I remember!) I'll kick this off again.

[Guest AG/DC]

I'm sorry. Hal can use all the caps he wants, but that first sentence is crap. A runner who has advanced partly down the line can retreat to the base after the catch, tag, and score.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, that doesn't ring true to me either.

If there's a rule on the books, then there's a rule. But I don't see why it matters if you're on the second base side of the bag or the home plate side before you tag. The only thing that should matter is that you have to have contact with third base at some point after the ball is caught.

I'm curious, though, about what he means by "illegal retouching." I remember reading that there's a rule that says a runner can't steal first. (Once you reach second base safely you're not allowed to return to first.) Does that mean that you're not legally allowed to retreat to the other side of the bag, even by a few feet?

The real problem with this Stanky maneuver is, I think, that it's probably close to impossible to time it so that you're touching third base on the run right as the ball is being caught. You'd have to leave a little leeway to make sure you don't touch too early, and that would likely eat up whatever advantage you gained from your running start.

[Centerfield]

I always wondered why sacrifice flies were not treated the same way in the Majors as it is in Little League. In the majors, I see players retreat to the base, put one foot on third, and face the outfielder. Once the ball is caught, they turn to home and take off. When I was growing up, we were taught to get on third, face home, and get into position to take off. We focused on the third base coach, and waited for his signal. As soon as we got the signal, we took off and didn't look anywhere else but the on-deck guy, who told us to walk it in or slide.

[HahnSolo]

Well, speaking for the Mets, their 3B coaches have been Sandy Alomar and Luis Aguayo. If you're a baserunner, you really trusting them?

[metsmarathon]

i would think that the problem with the stanky maneuver is that he's outside the basepath.

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield: I always wondered why sacrifice flies were not treated the same way in the Majors as it is in Little League. In the majors, I see players retreat to the base, put one foot on third, and face the outfielder. Once the ball is caught, they turn to home and take off. When I was growing up, we were taught to get on third, face home, and get into position to take off. We focused on the third base coach, and waited for his signal. As soon as we got the signal, we took off and didn't look anywhere else but the on-deck guy, who told us to walk it in or slide.

My guess is that you get a better jump by anticipating when the catch is going to be made and use that to 'burst out of the blocks' as in a sprint. You're still in contact with the bag as your lead leg moves into its initial stride as well as ahead of the game by the time ball hits glove.
MLers (theoretically at least) have better judgement to do that than 10 year olds and therefore don't need the coach to yell "NOW!!" at them. The runner would lose split-seconds due to the gap between hearing the coach and reacting plus the first part of the stride he gains from anticipating.

[Frayed Knot]

metsmarathon: i would think that the problem with the stanky maneuver is that he's outside the basepath.

Nah, you can run anywhere you want as long as you're not doing so just to avoid a tag.
Sounds to me like it was simply a rule made up specifically to counter one guy who found a sneaky way of gaining an edge.

The baserunner intenionally foiling a grounder rule was made up the same way.
The way I heard the story was that during a tie game, bottom 9, bases-loaded, 1-out situation, a a probable GiDP bouncer was hit to SS. The runner from 2nd (Joe Adcock sticks in my mind) grabbed the ball on the way by and heaved it into the OF. He was out but he prevented the DP and the winning run scored. That's when they put in the rule that the umps could rule a DP if the ball-hit-runner play was deemed intentional.

IOW, in both cases the sneaky ploy worked ... but it was the least time.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Okay, a few weeks have passed. Let's play another round of "Ask Hal."

Here we go...

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Harold Cooper, Champaign, Ill.This is a bizarre situation which may never happen, but I'm interested in knowing what the major league umpire's ruling would be? Let's assume there are men on third and first, one out. The runner on third takes off for home. The pitcher is on the mound, close to the rubber, but not on it. He throws the ball home (no stretch or windup). The batter swings and hits it. Is it a balk, batter interference or is the batted ball in play?

[Gwreck]

It's a balk and the ball is dead. Whatever the batter did with it does not count.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Balk I say

[Benjamin Grimm]

Bringing this forward to the current page.

So far, both Johnny and Gwreck say "balk."

Harold Cooper, Champaign, Ill.: This is a bizarre situation which may never happen, but I'm interested in knowing what the major league umpire's ruling would be? Let's assume there are men on third and first, one out. The runner on third takes off for home. The pitcher is on the mound, close to the rubber, but not on it. He throws the ball home (no stretch or windup). The batter swings and hits it. Is it a balk, batter interference or is the batted ball in play?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bawk.

[soupcan]

I don't know about the balk.

The key is that the pitcher never touched and was not on the rubber.

I think the ruling should be batter's interference but that gives the advantage to the pitcher who, I think, threw an illegal pitch.

I'm also thinking 'no pitch' and the runners have to go back. Rationally that would penalize the runner on third for leaving too soon and screwing up the play.


I'll go with interference though.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't think it's a balk, nor do I think it's a pitch.
I don't think the batter is allowed to hit it (although how is he to know that?) so I'm thinking interference, dead ball, runners return.

[Gwreck]

The key is that the ball cannot be put in play except by a pitch. And the pitch made by the pitcher was clearly illegal (ie. foot not on the rubber), hence the call of balk.

[soupcan]

Gwreck: The key is that the ball cannot be put in play except by a pitch. And the pitch made by the pitcher was clearly illegal (ie. foot not on the rubber), hence the call of balk.

But the runner took off - there was no time out - and the pitcher threw home to try to get him. Not a pitch because he wasn't on the rubber, but a throw to the base. The pitcher's not allowed to throw to the home base to get a runner?

I think he is.

[Benjamin Grimm]

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Hal's answer to Harold Cooper, which includes the rarely used word "inasmuch"

Hal the Referee: Inasmuch as the pitcher is not on the rubber, he is considered an infielder on this play and not the pitcher. Therefore, it is no pitch. The batter is interfering with a play at the plate. The ball is dead and the runner from third is called out because of the batter's interference. It's not so bizarre. It's happened. Almost everything possible has.

Stay tuned... another "Ask Hal" question will be coming next week.

[soupcan]

=soupcan: I'll go with interference though. I kick ass in this game.

[Benjamin Grimm]

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Dan Heisman, Horsham, Pa.: What is the rule in major league baseball if an outfielder, chasing after a fair fly ball, jumps over the fence with both feet and, being over the fence with his whole body, but not yet touching the ground, catches the ball and then lands over the fence? Where exactly is the distinction drawn between where the outfielder must be -- with regards to feet and fence -- in order to tell the difference between an out and a home run?

[soupcan]

If the ruling is that a player must have a part of his body in fair territory when the catch is made and this guy's entire body is over the 'plane' of the outfield fence, then HOMERUN I say.

If the ruling is that a player is considered to be in fair territory until and unless he touches the ground outside of fair territory than OUT is my call.

If an infielder can throw his whole body into the stands to make a catch that is then recorded as an out I would say that an outfielder can jump over a wall to catch a flyball.

OUT!

[metsmarathon]

i think it's like basketball, where you're in bounds until you land, making the batter out, and the fielder incredibly athletic.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Dan Heisman was thinking of Shinjo.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I would guess ground rules cover this from park to park.

But, I think Hal's gonna say that if a fielder leaves his feet to catch a would-be home run, he has to land on the field of play (or at least on the fence itself) to be considered an out.

[seawolf17]

soupcan: If an infielder can throw his whole body into the stands to make a catch that is then recorded as an out I would say that an outfielder can jump over a wall to catch a flyball. OUT!

I say this as well.

[metirish]

So in theory Endy could have jumped the fence and cleared it and still made the out in his catch against St. Louis?

I think that's a home run.

[Gwreck]

You have to land in the field of play. If the player landed on the other side of the wall, it's a home run.

[Guest Edgy DC]

* unless that player is Derek Jeter.

[HahnSolo]

I say he's out. i feel like I remember somebody diving over the low fence in Dodger Stadium and taking away a HR.

[Benjamin Grimm]

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p276/umdb/Misc/askHal.jpg

Hal's answer to Dan Heisman:

="Hal the Referee"] If the fielder has not yet landed on the other side of the fence before he catches the ball and he holds the ball after landing, the batter is out. The play you describe is an out. Therefore, the fielder can be on the other side of the fence, catch the ball while in the air and rob the batter of a homer. And robbery it would be.