Randolph - "Is it racial?"

[MFS62]

Congrats to all of you.
After the initial few posts, the discussion in this thread has centered on Willie's abilities as a manager. And that's the point. None of the discussion has been based on his race.
And that seems to support the view that Willie was wrong in saying what he did.

Later

[seawolf17]

You're only saying that because you're black.

[Benjamin Grimm]

="AG/DC"] ="Nymr83"] ="AG/DC"]The only blood I'm looking for is the other team's. And you'd like to have the manager best equipped to draw it, right? And you know who that is? I don't. I'd like the best team.

I don't know who it is either. But I really don't think it's Willie Randolph.

There's little point in replacing Willie with a different manager unless it's also a better manager.

It's easy enough to find one who's more fiery. My criteria is someone who's smarter, and that's harder to identify, at least from where I sit.

[Guest AG/DC]

That's where I sit, and if I'm going to change horses, I'd like to have a plan. I've seen moments of seeming brilliance from Willie --- where his critics were dead wrong --- but far too many moments of seeming oversight (starting with him blowing a double switch his first time out), retrograde choices, and intellectual stubborn-ness.

I'm not at the point where the organizational trauma of a mid-season switch is worth it, when I'm not sure what I'm getting (thought I was much closer to that point three days ago). Maybe we all need to watch more Zephyrball.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I found a rather difficult to navigate Zephyrs forum.

Maybe there's a better one out there. I was looking for a good forum we could visit or blogger who we could invite here to discuss the pros and cons of Ken Oberkfell.

I didn't spend a whole lot of time searching, so maybe there's something out there, but I came up pretty empty.

[MFS62]

The only race we care about is the pennant race.

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

Willie's on SNY RIGHT NOW saying his comments were "tongue in cheek."

[Guest AG/DC]

Cool.

[metirish]

That's certainly not how Ian O 'Connor's article read , interesting.

[G-Fafif]

And Wagner wasn't talking about Delgado the other day either.

[metirish]

What Willie said , today that is.

] "Well, you know, this really just boils back down to wins and losses. It really does. I think when you�re an environment like this where expectations are high and we don�t play up to our capabilities at any point in time, there�s going to be a lot of talk, a lot of fodder, opinions on how we played. Yeah, it does seem like after a while it gets to be pounded on a little bit. "But I understand that. I think I mentioned to [O'Connor] about feeling almost racial or whatever, but that was pretty much kind of a tongue in cheek kind of reaction to what I�ve been feeling. Not that anybody is racist, or this is racist or racial. I�ve known Ian a long time. We were just kind of chit-chatting and talking or whatever. "But the Wilpons hired me because � not because I�m black � because they can feel like I can do a good job for them. They trusted this team to me and they hired me because they feel like I can do the job not the color of my skin. "Again, it�s been a lot of negative stuff going around here and I�ve been feeling some of that. Again, I was just expressing how I felt at the time, but it wasn�t anything to do with race and I wasn�t trying to bring race into it. I was just talking to an old friend and obviously I probably should have thought more about what I was getting ready to say. I don�t think it�s about race. It�s about winning ballgames, it�s about getting to the way we�re capable of playing and winning."

[nymr83]

="Benjamin Grimm"] I don't know who it is either. But I really don't think it's Willie Randolph. There's little point in replacing Willie with a different manager unless it's also a better manager. It's easy enough to find one who's more fiery. My criteria is someone who's smarter, and that's harder to identify, at least from where I sit.

certainly we can look at other guy's with experience and see if they do the right things... don't bunt like crazy for no reason, dont bring in 5 relievers in 3 innings, etc.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Oh, I agree that it's possible to determine if a guy uses smart strategy.

What I was saying was that I don't know who the smart guys are. (And I'm not going to conduct an extensive investigation, either, unless I'm appointed as head of the Manager Search Committee.)

[Guest AG/DC]

Certainly. You start.

[Vic Sage]

="Centerfield":ru456v70]I don't see why you would be so indifferent to a managerial change. If you think he lacks game management skills, such can have an effect on the outcome of a season. I agree that it may not be a 15 game swing, but after falling 1 game short last year, isn't it important to take every advantage you can? I realize that making the post-season is like gambling, where the odds are against you. I just wish we didn't have a manager who insisted on doubling down on hard 12's.[/quote:ru456v70] I think managers have markedly less impact than they are given credit (or blame) for. And while i don't often agree with Willie, and criticized his hiring from the outset, i just don't think it would make much of a difference. If Wright and Reyes were repeating their MVP seasons, and Ollie Perez was repeating his success from last year, We'd be a few games up instead of a few games back, and few would be calling for Willie's head on a pike. Joe Torre was the same manager with the Mets in the late 1970s as he was with the Braves, the Cards and the Yanks, and now with L.A. His sucesses and failures were driven by his rosters, not the otherway around. I just think a mid-season managerial firing is the hallmark of a troubled franchise making a panicky move, and i don't want us to do that. If the Mets fail to make the post-season again, the Wilpons should fire Minaya AND Willie, then conduct an exhaustive search for the best up-and-coming GM in the business (hopefully one that worked for Billy Beane, or at least one that doesn't need SABRmetrics explained to him), and let him hire who he wants to hire.

soupcan May 21 2008 08:46 AM

I sit at my desk all day, fielding phone calls, making phone calls, doing paperworkand tooling around a bit on the 'net during and in between. I always have the radio on, tuned to WFAN. Its just to have some background buzz but of course I hear what they're saying. This entire Willie Randolph thing has just gotten completely out of hand. This initial comment: ]"Is it racial?" Randolph asked. "Huh? It smells a little bit." Asked directly if he believes black managers are held to different standards than their white counterparts, Randolph said: "I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I think there's something there. Herman Edwards did pretty well here and he won a couple of playoff [games], and they were pretty hard on Herm. Isiah [Thomas] didn't do a great job, but they beat up Isiah pretty good. ... I don't know if people are used to a certain figurehead. There's something weird about it. Has become 'Willie's invoking the race card!'. Every one who calls in wants to talk about it. The program hosts are constantly bringing it up and coming down on one side or the other. Mostly they 'don't agree'. I realize that they need to stir up controversy, that's their job but this is bordering on, if it isn't already and completely irresponsible journalism. Where in that paragraph does Randolph say he is being discriminated against in any fashion whatsoever? And let's say that Willie did say something like that. How do caucasian radio hosts have the audacity to 'disagree' with him?! How could they possibly have any idea what a black man in a high profile position experiences in terms of racism? 'Well, I don't think Met fans are racist. I've never seen it." Amazing. Truly. And then, when asked to clarify his comments, Willie basically says, "hey, that's not really what I meant or was trying to say." These guys don't back off. They don't accept it. Because, well they know better. They know what Willie meant. He's playing the race card to deflect criticsm of his poor record. I was hoping that Randolph was trying to invoke an old Torre tactic of trying to deflect criticism of the team towards him when he gave that interview to O'Connor and maybe he was. Even so though, Willie does not in any way deserve the the skewering his getting on the radio these days. Its embarassing.

AG/DC May 21 2008 08:51 AM

They don't back off because scavengers don't back off an injured animal. They won't back off anymore than boobirds will back off when it becomes possible that they are actually damaging a player's work environment. They prey on the weak, and Willie appeared to have shown a weakness, whether he actually has or not.

Grote15 May 21 2008 11:55 AM

Media feeds on fear and the consumption of it. They prey on the weak and don't stop until that days' or weeks lunch is done. Willie Randolph is todays lunch. As manager I would prefer someone else..Today... As an employee, human being and man..Leave Randolph alone whether he be white,black,latino or purple...It's his job..If his boss feels his services are no longer required he will be fired. I feel the season can be summed up by Hernandez sitting in the bleachers. One big fucking joke. And if I were the owner I would politely dismiss Willie Randolph and hire the best available candidate. Its' late May and the season has denigrated into a bullshitfest..Good Lord.. Ted G.

metirish May 21 2008 08:43 PM

I dunno but I think the end is near. ] Randolph apologizes to Mets management, SNY BY DAVID LENNON | david.lennon@newsday.com - Three days after making inflammatory comments to the Bergen Record, Willie Randolph issued an apology before Wednesday night's game against the Braves. When reporters entered the visiting manager's office here at Turner Field for his daily briefing, Randolph was sitting at his desk, an 8x11 sheet of white loose-leaf paper in front of him. The page was filled with notes carefully written in black ink. When the first question was asked about the health of Ryan Church, who was hospitalized Tuesday with a mild concussion, Randolph politely steered the conversation in another direction. "Before I start guys, I need to say a few things real quick," Randolph said. "First of all I want to apologize to Met ownership, SNY and my team for the unnecessary distraction that I created the last couple of days. I shouldn't have said what I said. It was a mistake -- simple as that. It was a mistake. There's no excuses for that. I'm owning up to it. "The fact of life is that we haven't been playing very well as a team. We've been very inconsistent. When that happens, you're going to be criticized for that. I understand that. It's been a tough couple of months. I expect a lot from my team, from myself, and I understand that goes along with it. I've been in this town for a long time. "I take full responsibility for what I said in my frustration and I hope that we can put a close to this matter and focus on winning a lot of baseball games. That's what we're here to do -- win a championship. I just wanted to publicly apologize and I take full responsibility for what happened a couple of days ago." Randolph later said during his weekly appearance on WFAN that his comments were meant to be off the record, a claim the Record's Ian O'Connor vehemently denies. But apparently it took him almost 72 hours to fully realize how much of a mess he had made. Randolph suggested that racial bias may be part of the reason for the media criticism. He also angered SNY officials by saying the network's coverage was slanted against him. That also did not go over well with the upper management of the Mets, who also own the majority stake in SNY, and apparently Randolph's handling of the fallout on Tuesday did not suffice. The Mets manager said he already had reached out to the Wilpons to apologize directly, but was not instructed by team ownership to issue the statement. COO Jeff Wilpon did not return a telephone call seeking comment. Randolph also told WFAN that he was so troubled by the controversy that he talked with his pastor and family about how to make amends. "I just felt like it was something I wanted to do," Ran.dolph said. "I feel bad about how this has come about because I don't want to be a distraction or for anyone to think this is really how I feel. When you're in the heat of battle sometimes, when you're frustrated, sometimes you open up a little bit or elaborate a little too much, and that's probably what I did." More articles

Nymr83 May 21 2008 08:56 PM

]Its' late May and the season has denigrated into a bullshitfest..Good Lord.. The Mets are 22-22, 3.5 out of a Marlin team that likely won't be there in september and 2 behind the phillies and braves, i'm not happy with how the mets are playing but its hardly as bad as you make it out to be.

DocTee May 21 2008 09:16 PM

Considering that several of last year's playoff teams (DET, COL, MFY) and one with championship hopes (CLE) are playing worse than the Mets, you'd think we are better than some suggest.

metirish May 22 2008 06:59 AM

I tuned into the radio for a few innings last night , Howie and Wayne were talking about the Randolph controversy , Howie maintained that it was causing a distraction to the team and has created " tension" among the team he didn't elaborate .

Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 07:18 PM

Before Willie was a victim of cruel mistreatment by stupid assholes, he was a stupid asshole playing the race card. All it took for his public rehabilitation was his termination. This incident turned out, according to Willie, to be his one regret (or main regret) upon leaving the Mets. And I offer this thread as a second nominee for the Craney --- even though I have too much to say in it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:43 PM

I think given some perspective this was all about Willie's paranoia careening further and further off course. That said I still think everyone reacted way too harshly, and a public apology must have been murder on Willie's dignity. Again, the Mets being the "bad guy" in his firing a month later did him a big favor.

[soupcan]

I sit at my desk all day, fielding phone calls, making phone calls, doing paperworkand tooling around a bit on the 'net during and in between.

I always have the radio on, tuned to WFAN. Its just to have some background buzz but of course I hear what they're saying.

This entire Willie Randolph thing has just gotten completely out of hand.

This initial comment:

]"Is it racial?" Randolph asked. "Huh? It smells a little bit." Asked directly if he believes black managers are held to different standards than their white counterparts, Randolph said: "I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I think there's something there. Herman Edwards did pretty well here and he won a couple of playoff [games], and they were pretty hard on Herm. Isiah [Thomas] didn't do a great job, but they beat up Isiah pretty good. ... I don't know if people are used to a certain figurehead. There's something weird about it.

Has become 'Willie's invoking the race card!'. Every one who calls in wants to talk about it. The program hosts are constantly bringing it up and coming down on one side or the other. Mostly they 'don't agree'.

I realize that they need to stir up controversy, that's their job but this is bordering on, if it isn't already and completely irresponsible journalism.

Where in that paragraph does Randolph say he is being discriminated against in any fashion whatsoever?

And let's say that Willie did say something like that. How do caucasian radio hosts have the audacity to 'disagree' with him?! How could they possibly have any idea what a black man in a high profile position experiences in terms of racism?

'Well, I don't think Met fans are racist. I've never seen it."

Amazing. Truly.

And then, when asked to clarify his comments, Willie basically says, "hey, that's not really what I meant or was trying to say." These guys don't back off. They don't accept it. Because, well they know better. They know what Willie meant. He's playing the race card to deflect criticsm of his poor record.

I was hoping that Randolph was trying to invoke an old Torre tactic of trying to deflect criticism of the team towards him when he gave that interview to O'Connor and maybe he was. Even so though, Willie does not in any way deserve the the skewering his getting on the radio these days. Its embarassing.

[Guest AG/DC]

They don't back off because scavengers don't back off an injured animal. They won't back off anymore than boobirds will back off when it becomes possible that they are actually damaging a player's work environment.

They prey on the weak, and Willie appeared to have shown a weakness, whether he actually has or not.

[Guest Grote15]

Media feeds on fear and the consumption of it. They prey on the weak and don't stop until that days' or weeks lunch is done. Willie Randolph is todays lunch.

As manager I would prefer someone else..Today...

As an employee, human being and man..Leave Randolph alone whether he be white,black,latino or purple...It's his job..If his boss feels his services are no longer required he will be fired.

I feel the season can be summed up by Hernandez sitting in the bleachers.

One big fucking joke. And if I were the owner I would politely dismiss Willie Randolph and hire the best available candidate.

Its' late May and the season has denigrated into a bullshitfest..Good Lord..

Ted G.

[metirish]

I dunno but I think the end is near.

] Randolph apologizes to Mets management, SNY BY DAVID LENNON | david.lennon@newsday.com - Three days after making inflammatory comments to the Bergen Record, Willie Randolph issued an apology before Wednesday night's game against the Braves. When reporters entered the visiting manager's office here at Turner Field for his daily briefing, Randolph was sitting at his desk, an 8x11 sheet of white loose-leaf paper in front of him. The page was filled with notes carefully written in black ink. When the first question was asked about the health of Ryan Church, who was hospitalized Tuesday with a mild concussion, Randolph politely steered the conversation in another direction. "Before I start guys, I need to say a few things real quick," Randolph said. "First of all I want to apologize to Met ownership, SNY and my team for the unnecessary distraction that I created the last couple of days. I shouldn't have said what I said. It was a mistake -- simple as that. It was a mistake. There's no excuses for that. I'm owning up to it. "The fact of life is that we haven't been playing very well as a team. We've been very inconsistent. When that happens, you're going to be criticized for that. I understand that. It's been a tough couple of months. I expect a lot from my team, from myself, and I understand that goes along with it. I've been in this town for a long time. "I take full responsibility for what I said in my frustration and I hope that we can put a close to this matter and focus on winning a lot of baseball games. That's what we're here to do -- win a championship. I just wanted to publicly apologize and I take full responsibility for what happened a couple of days ago." Randolph later said during his weekly appearance on WFAN that his comments were meant to be off the record, a claim the Record's Ian O'Connor vehemently denies. But apparently it took him almost 72 hours to fully realize how much of a mess he had made. Randolph suggested that racial bias may be part of the reason for the media criticism. He also angered SNY officials by saying the network's coverage was slanted against him. That also did not go over well with the upper management of the Mets, who also own the majority stake in SNY, and apparently Randolph's handling of the fallout on Tuesday did not suffice. The Mets manager said he already had reached out to the Wilpons to apologize directly, but was not instructed by team ownership to issue the statement. COO Jeff Wilpon did not return a telephone call seeking comment. Randolph also told WFAN that he was so troubled by the controversy that he talked with his pastor and family about how to make amends. "I just felt like it was something I wanted to do," Ran.dolph said. "I feel bad about how this has come about because I don't want to be a distraction or for anyone to think this is really how I feel. When you're in the heat of battle sometimes, when you're frustrated, sometimes you open up a little bit or elaborate a little too much, and that's probably what I did." More articles

[nymr83]

]Its' late May and the season has denigrated into a bullshitfest..Good Lord..

The Mets are 22-22, 3.5 out of a Marlin team that likely won't be there in september and 2 behind the phillies and braves, i'm not happy with how the mets are playing but its hardly as bad as you make it out to be.

[DocTee]

Considering that several of last year's playoff teams (DET, COL, MFY) and one with championship hopes (CLE) are playing worse than the Mets, you'd think we are better than some suggest.

[metirish]

I tuned into the radio for a few innings last night , Howie and Wayne were talking about the Randolph controversy , Howie maintained that it was causing a distraction to the team and has created " tension" among the team he didn't elaborate .

[Guest Edgy DC]

Before Willie was a victim of cruel mistreatment by stupid assholes, he was a stupid asshole playing the race card. All it took for his public rehabilitation was his termination.

This incident turned out, according to Willie, to be his one regret (or main regret) upon leaving the Mets.

And I offer this thread as a second nominee for the Craney --- even though I have too much to say in it.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think given some perspective this was all about Willie's paranoia careening further and further off course. That said I still think everyone reacted way too harshly, and a public apology must have been murder on Willie's dignity.

Again, the Mets being the "bad guy" in his firing a month later did him a big favor.