2007 Crane Pool Forum Rankings Thread

[Frayed Knot]

Well I'm ready to start taking a crack at this.

For those of you newbies or part-timers who aren't familiar, the CPF Annual Ranking Project is like a season-long version of our daily Player of the Game awards ... only different.

Rather than awarding a score to each player, you're creating an ordinal list of the best 30 players this season (from among the 49 that appeared) from biggest to smallest contributions. And rather than just submitting a vote and counting them up we tend to hash over them a while arguing specific points about who should be ranked above who and other such stuff. How you arrive at your answer is strictly up to you although you should be prepared to explain and/or defend your choices or even change them if persuaded enough by those questioning your logic, your knowledge of baseball, or the size of your brain.

There's no specific time limit here as we usually let this go on as long as there's still enough discussion to keep it going. Eventually we arrive at some sort of consensus and put that "into the books" as our official 2007 ranking. Said ranking will be combined with the ones we did for the previous 45 seasons which creates the overall player list of best ever Mets which is where those names connected to your posting levels come from.

You can participate by submitting your own list in full, or just sit on the sidelines and argue specific points such as why you believe that player 'A' deserves to be higher or lower than 'B' and the rest of the crew must be drunk for not seeing it that way, etc.
You also are, of course, free to just ignore the whole fucking thing altogether ... although doing that precludes you from ever complaining that your designated whipping boy du-season is ranked too high when you're suddenly saddled with having his name next to your posts for a week or so.


Here's the roster we need to deal with:

The 25 position players who got into at least one game this year (in order of ABs)
Reyes - Wright - Beltran - Delgado - Green
LoDuca - Alou - Castillo - Easley - Gotay
Milledge - Valentin - Chavez - Castro - Gomez
Newhan - Anderson - Franco - Conine - DiFelice
Ledee - Johnson - Alomar - Ambres - Hernandez

And the 24 pitchers who appeared for the blue & orange in 2007 (in order of IPs)
Glavine - Maine - Perez - Hernandez - Sosa
Heilman - Pelfrey - Wagner - Feliciano - Schoeneweis
Mota - Sele - Smith - Lawrence - Martinez
Burgos - Vargas - Humber - Collazo - Williams
Park - Muniz - Adkins - Urdaneta

Edited October 9, 2007 by Guest

[Frayed Knot]

I like to start these by sorting out the position players from the pitchers and then combine them later.

First the hitters:

Wright - Led team in virtually every offensive category and was miles ahead in both OBA & Runs Created. He's the top position player this year and it's not even close.

Beltran - Fast start but then a slow stretch lingered well into mid-year before a good finish. Still, the final numbers added up to a pretty good year even if they pale against the near-MVP 2006

Reyes - Great start, horrid finish. Ran well, power plummeted.

Delgado - Disappointing year even if still occasionally dangerous

Alou - Was great while he was available but all that missed time puts him behind the full-timers

LoDuca - Bad offensive year. Only brownie points for being the catcher gets him this high.

Green - Not nearly enough power from a corner OF position, but was somewhat reliable and finished strong.

Castillo - May not be a keeper, but hit & played 2nd well enough after the trade deadline to earn first place amongst the irregulars

Milledge - Was a shame that he wasn't available when the rest of the OF was dropping like flies or we may have actually seen him on the field for an uninterrupted stretch.

Easley - Nice versatility and some monster moments

Castro - Awesome slugging but injuries blew maybe his best chance at semi-regular work

Gotay - Nice fill-in, and maybe more than that in the future.

Anderson - His ridiculous RBI/Hit ratio puts him much higher than just 69 ABs would usually merit

Chavez - Nice to have around when he was around, but reduced offense compared to '06 reminds us why he has been a 4th outfielder at best

Gomez - The fans who fell in love with his speed and were ready to say he'd bypassed Milledge seemed to miss some anemic slugging and lack of walks.

Valentin - Been gone so long you almost forgot he was here didn't you?

Newhan/Franco - Newhan wins this battle on account of 3 XBHs to 1

DiFelice, Conine, Ledee, Johnson, Ambres, Alomar, & Hernandez all have no shot at making the final cut

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm not going to respond/debate/read this thread until I've had a chance to my own list, then I'll join in.

[Valadius]

Awesome! Can't wait to start number-crunching.

[Zvon]

I'VE BEEN WAITING TO GET IN ON THIS FOR 45 SEASONS!

Wheres the line start?
Oh, right here.

I shall prepare my submission(s) for your(s) perusal.

[Frayed Knot]

And then the pitchers:

Maine - All-Star caliber first half, then a sinking ship for 2 months which was righted at the tail end with a gem which almost saved the season

Perez - When he wasn't melting down on the mound in a sea of walks and HBPs he was leading the team in ERA and tied for lead in wins.

Hernandez - Was the best starter on the staff ... when he was available

Wagner - A near perfect 1st half (1.64 ERA, 0.92 WhiP) turned shakey later on (3.90, 1.40)

Glavine - His best run came down the home stretch ... until it fell 3 games short

Heilman - Very odd year in that his outings seemed to be either perfect ... or perfectly horrible. Gave up just 22 hits and 25 BBs/HBPs - and 36 of them scored!!

Feliciano - Probably the most consistant reliever all year - but a ton of walks

Sosa - Started out great in the rotation ... then lost his job ... then found himself in the bullpen

Martinez - Pitched well in his return, but still just 5 starts and 28 IP

Smith - First 17+ IP were scoreless, then allowed 17 ER over the next 27

Pelfrey - Too many walks kept him from putting together more than a good inning or two in a row.

Schoeneweis - Strong finish can't erase a horrid 1st half

Mota - Too many HRs ruins what is often great stuff

Burgos - Showed glimpses of promise

Sele - Not only didn't pitch very well but also virtually no important innings

Lawrence, Vargas, Humber, Collazo, Williams, Park, Muniz, Adkins & Urdaneta ain't making the cut.



Which leads us to the combined list:

30 - Wright
29 - Beltran
28 - Reyes
27 - Maine
26 - Perez
25 - Delgado
24 - Hernandez
23 - Wagner
22 - Glavine
21 - Alou
20 - Heilman
19 - LoDuca
18 - Feliciano
17 - Green
16 - Castillo
15 - Milledge
14 - Sosa
13 - Easley
12 - Castro
11 - Gotay
10 - Martinez
9 - Smith
8 - Anderson
7 - Pelfrey
6 - Chavez
5 - Gomez
4 - Schoeneweis
3 - Mota
2 - Velentin
1 - Burgos

On the outside looking in:
Adkins, Alomar, Ambres, Collazo, Conine, DiFelice, Franco, A. Hernandez, Humber, Johnson, Lawrence, Newhan, Sele, Urnadeta, Vargas, Williams



So go ahead, show me where I'm nuts.

[Edgy MD]

Smith's batting average against seemed shockingly high. He was seemingly redeemed by a similarly high gb/fb ratio. Maybe the Mets should put five infielders out there when he's pitching.

[Vic Sage]

Frayed Knot wrote: Which leads us to the combined list: 30 - Wright 29 - Beltran 28 - Reyes 27 - Maine 26 - Perez 25 - Delgado 24 - Hernandez 23 - Wagner 22 - Glavine 21 - Alou 20 - Heilman 19 - LoDuca 18 - Feliciano 17 - Green 16 - Castillo 15 - Milledge 14 - Sosa 13 - Easley 12 - Castro 11 - Gotay 10 - Martinez 9 - Smith 8 - Anderson 7 - Pelfrey 6 - Chavez 5 - Gomez 4 - Schoeneweis 3 - Mota 2 - Velentin 1 - Burgos So go ahead, show me where I'm nuts.

Perez was better than Maine overall, and Green was better than LoDuca. And whether Glavine's full season of mediocrity was slightly better or worse than Alou's abreviated season of excellence is also open to debate. Other than that, i agree with your list.

[Edgy MD]

So, Norrin/Vic gives us:

30 - Wright
29 - Beltran
28 - Reyes
27 - Perez
26 - Maine
25 - Delgado
24 - Hernandez
23 - Wagner
T21.5 - Glavine
T21.5 - Alou
20 - Heilman
19 - Green
18 - LoDuca
17 - Feliciano
16 - Castillo
15 - Milledge
14 - Sosa
13 - Easley
12 - Castro
11 - Gotay
10 - Martinez
9 - Smith
8 - Anderson
7 - Pelfrey
6 - Chavez
5 - Gomez
4 - Schoeneweis
3 - Mota
2 - Velentin
1 - Burgos

[seawolf17]

Okay, I'm in.

30 - Wright
29 - Beltran
28 - Reyes
27 - Perez
26 - Maine
25 - Delgado
24 - OHernandez
23 - Wagner
22 - Alou
21 - Glavine
20 - Heilman
19 - Green
18 - LoDuca
17 - Gotay
16 - Feliciano
15 - Castillo
14 - Sosa
13 - Castro
12 - Milledge
11 - Easley
10 - Anderson
9 - Smith
8 - Martinez
7 - Gomez
6 - Schoeneweis
5 - Chavez
4 - Pelfrey
3 - Mota
2 - Valentin
1 - Sele

I'm not thrilled with this list, but the basic gist is correct to me.

[TransMonk]

My List:

30 - David Wright
29 - Carlos Beltran
28 - Oliver Perez
27 - John Maine
26 - Jose Reyes
25 - Orlando Hernandez
24 - Tom Glavine
23 - Carlos Delgado
22 - Billy Wagner
21 - Moises Alou
20 - Aaron Heilman
19 - Shawn Green
18 - Paul Lo Duca
17 - Pedro Feliciano
16 - Damion Easley
15 - Luis Castillo
14 - Ramon Castro
13 - Jorge Sosa
12 - Lastings Milledge
11 - Marlon Anderson
10 - Pedro Martinez
9 - Ruben Gotay
8 - Scott Schoeneweis
7 - Endy Chavez
6 - Mike Pelfrey
5 - Jose Valentin
4 - Joe Smith
3 - Carlos Gomez
2 - Guillermo Mota
1 - Aaron Sele


Biggest differences with FK:

I have Perez and Maine above Reyes. This is mostly due to them stepping up and nicely filling out a rotation that many thought would be a question mark at the beginning of the year. They gave a positive answer to those questions. To me they are closer to a wash, but I did have Perez on top of Maine when I originally made my list. While Reyes had a good first half and achieved more walks and stolen bases than in previous seasons, he really struggled after the All-Star break and took a step backwards after his break out season in ’06.

I have Glavine higher than Delgado and Wagner. Glavine was spotty at times, but did pitch 200 innings and led the team in quality starts. Delgado had decent power numbers, but was a shell of his former self the majority of the year. Wags, like Reyes, had a great first half, but struggled down the stretch.

I had Green above LoDuca, only because in almost identical ABs, Green was superior in almost all stats except RBI and had an OPS almost 100 points higher. Green is a RF and LoDuca is a catcher, so it’s not a major point of contention for me.

I had Easley above Castillo. Again in similar at-bats, Easley had better overall stats IMO. Because Easley got hurt and Castillo filled a major hole in the #2 spot in the lineup, again it’s not a major issue for me.

From there down, there are some slight differences, but nothing shockingly different that I would argue too hard for. I have Anderson higher just because of how many clutch PHs he had. I have Smith lower because he was just not the same in September as he was in April. I went with Sele over Burgos as last man standing only due to the fact that he was up with the ML team all year.

[Vic Sage]

Norrin/Vic actually gives you:

30 - Wright - MVP
29 - Beltran - up and down, but solid overall numbers
28 - Perez - while up and down a bit, he was the best pitcher on the team.
27 - Reyes - 2 great months, + 4 crappy ones.
26 - Maine - 2nd half slide leaves questions
25 - Delgado - he was finally getting hot when he got hurt near the end
24 - Hernandez - mostly great, when available
23 - Wagner - great 1st 3 months, lousy last 2
22 - Alou - Terrific for 1/2 a season
21 - Glavine - ERA+ = 96; 200 IP of total mediocrity
20 - Heilman - stronger in 2nd half
19 - Green - finished strongly, better OPS+ than Reyes
18 - Feliciano - great 1st half; but too many walks
17 - LoDuca - OPS+ = 81
16 - Milledge - solid as part-timer
15 - Easley - best 2bman, in limited time
14 - Castillo - okay
13 - Sosa - good start as SP, then crash; inconsistent in pen
12 - Castro - better than LoDuca, but hurt
11 - Gotay - good hitter from 1 side, glove erratic
10 - Martinez - great in 5 GS
9 - Anderson - great PHer, productive in limited role
8 - Smith - great start, then "boom"
7 - Pelfrey - still waiting
6 - Gomez - shows flashes of speed and leather
5 - Chavez - not much this year
4 - Schoeneweis - better in 2nd half, but crap overall
3 - Mota - crap from day 51 on
2 - Velentin - crap, then hurt
1 - Burgos - hurt

[G-Fafif]

I'm going with my cumulative Schaefer standings. I went back the last couple of days and added them up (didn't keep track during the season because I didn't trust myself to not manipulate their points to maybe nose one Met I liked in front of another Met I didn't like as much) for FAFIF purposes, but since we're doing this, I'll throw 'em in here. I imagine if I were starting from scratch without this database, it would come out differently in spots. This way it's presented without prejudice or agenda.

30 David Wright
29 Carlos Beltran
28 Jose Reyes
27 Carlos Delgado
26 John Maine
25 Oliver Perez
24 Tom Glavine
23 Paul Lo Duca
22 Moises Alou
21 Orlando Hernandez
20 Shawn Green
19 Jorge Sosa
18 Lastings Milledge
17 Damion Easley
16 Billy Wagner
15 Endy Chavez
14 Aaron Heilman
13 Luis Castillo
12 Ramon Castro
11 Marlon Anderson
10 Pedro Feliciano
9 Ruben Gotay
8 Carlos Gomez
7 Pedro Martinez
6 Jose Valentin
5 Scott Schoeneweis
4 Guillermo Mota
3 Joe Smith
2 Dave Newhan
1 Mike Pelfrey

[Valadius]

All right, here we go. So we start out with 49 players. Let's work them down to 30.

First, I'll weed out the players who barely made an impact. So that removes Vargas, Humber, Collazo, Williams, Park, Muniz, Adkins, and Urdaneta on the pitching side, initially, and Franco, Conine, DiFelice, Ledee, Johnson, Alomar, Ambres, and A. Hernandez on the hitting side. So that whittles it down to 33 players. There are three more players to cut. First one to go is David Newhan, who didn't do enough. Next is Brian Lawrence, who was simply atrocious. Last is Ambiorix Burgos, who unfortunately couldn't pitch enough. So that leaves 30 players.

Next, I'll rank the position players and pitchers individually:

Position Players

Wright
Beltran
Reyes
Delgado
Alou
Green
Lo Duca
Castillo
Easley
Milledge
Castro
Gotay
Anderson
Chavez
Valentin
Gomez

Pitchers

Perez
Maine
Wagner
Heilman
Glavine
Hernandez
Feliciano
Sosa
Martinez
Smith
Schoeneweis
Pelfrey
Mota
Sele

And now, to combine the two:

30 - David Wright
29 - Carlos Beltran
28 - Oliver Perez
27 - John Maine
26 - Jose Reyes
25 - Billy Wagner
24 - Carlos Delgado
23 - Moises Alou
22 - Aaron Heilman
21 - Tom Glavine
20 - Orlando Hernandez
19 - Shawn Green
18 - Paul Lo Duca
17 - Pedro Feliciano
16 - Luis Castillo
15 - Damion Easley
14 - Lastings Milledge
13 - Jorge Sosa
12 - Ramon Castro
11 - Ruben Gotay
10 - Pedro Martinez
9 - Marlon Anderson
8 - Joe Smith
7 - Endy Chavez
6 - Scott Schoeneweis
5 - Mike Pelfrey
4 - Jose Valentin
3 - Carlos Gomez
2 - Guillermo Mota
1 - Aaron Sele

[Frayed Knot]

GFaFiF: This way it's presented without prejudice or agenda.

Yeah but is it accurate?
Do you really want to make the case for Easley being more important to this season than Wagner; or Chavez more than Heilman; or Newhan more than, well ... anyone?

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: Eventually we arrive at some sort of consensus and put that "into the books" as our official 2007 ranking. Said ranking will be combined with the ones we did for the previous 45 seasons which creates the overall player list of best ever Mets which is where those names connected to your posting levels come from.

How do older non active players get to move up this list?
Or do they?

[Edgy MD]

The only way to move up is for us to reconsider a past year. But obviously, your legacy is in place when you're done playing. The best you can do is hope hold your place for a long time.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Guest

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: The only way to move up is for us to reconsider a past year. But obviously, your legacy is in place when you're done playing. The best you can do is hope hold your place for a long time.

Oh.
So that's how someone like Trachsel ends up being a top 50 all time Met.
Hmmmm...

Don't seem right to me but I'm just along for the ride.
WEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeee~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Edgy MD]

He's started the twelfth most games of any Mets pitcher, eleventh until Glavine passed him this month.

[Zvon]

I suppose thats something.
But we are talking about all-time Mets.

As a Met he went 66-59.
Hey, maybe as far as pitching goes that's top 50 material.
Not in my book, but this isn't my book we go by.
In the post season he started 2 games and lasted a total of 4.1 innings with a 14.54 ERA.
To me, this really effects his standings in relation to what he accomplished for my team.

[metsmarathon]

name 50 or more mets who should be ranked more highly than trachsel.

[Zvon]

metsmarathon wrote: name 50 or more mets who should be ranked more highly than trachsel.

....ask me a more ridiculous question.

[Zvon]

30- Wright
29- Maine
28- Beltran
27- Perez
26- Reyes
25- Alou
24- LoDuca
23- Delgado
22- Wagner
21- Glavine
20- Green
19- Hernandez
18- Heilman
17- Sosa
16- Chavez
15- Castillo
14- Feliciano
13- Easley
12- Castro
11- Milledge
10- Smith
9 - Martinez
8 - Gotay
7 - Mota
6 - Schoenweis
5 - Anderson
4 - Valentin
3 - Pelfrey
2 - Gomez
1 - Sele


Fixed on edit.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Guest

[Valadius]

Um... Z?

Are you seriously leaving out Aaron Heilman?

[Zvon]

Valadius wrote: Um... Z? Are you seriously leaving out Aaron Heilman?

That is a mistake.
I did some last minute changes and I knew id screw up.

He was pretty high on my list too.
Ill fix that--thanks Val


On edit:
I first wrote up a list off the top of my head.
Then I typed it up.
Then I went to take a look at the seasonal stats, which compelled me to make some changes.
Conine got bumped.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

Zvon wrote: I suppose thats something. But we are talking about all-time Mets.

Clearly, that's why I quoted his all-time ranking

As a Met he went 66-59. Hey, maybe as far as pitching goes that's top 50 material.

What's top-50 material? Are there 20 more accomplished pitchers?

Not in my book, but this isn't my book we go by.

It's a book written on consensus.

In the post season he started 2 games and lasted a total of 4.1 innings with a 14.54 ERA.

That sucks. It's also a small sample.

To me, this really effects his standings in relation to what he accomplished for my team.

Nobody goes backwards. That doesn't make sense. It's a cumulative total.

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: Zvon wrote: I suppose thats something. But we are talking about all-time Mets. Clearly, that's why I quoted his all-time ranking As a Met he went 66-59. Hey, maybe as far as pitching goes that's top 50 material. What's top-50 material? Are there 20 more accomplished pitchers? Not in my book, but this isn't my book we go by. It's a book written on consensus. In the post season he started 2 games and lasted a total of 4.1 innings with a 14.54 ERA. That sucks. It's also a small sample. To me, this really effects his standings in relation to what he accomplished for my team. Nobody goes backwards. That doesn't make sense. It's a cumulative total.

Those two small samples were his two biggest assignments in a Met uniform.
I'm all for the consensus method.
I'm simply stating my opinion.

In reference to pitchers in Met history I'm not sure what top 50 material is.
Where is the current overall list, I'd like to take a look at it.

My point is that as far as overall all-time Mets go, older non active players should be able to be re-evaluated as to their place.
Not simply brushed aside for current crop.
Just sayin....

How is this new list factored in to the existing list?

[Edgy MD]

They are re-evaluated. Feel free to go the rankings forum and add your voice to any season in which Trachs is ranked.

The new list is factored in by everybody having his rank (the top guy getting a rank of 30) squared, multiplied by 88 (Met wins), divided by 10 (to chop a zero off the end, every score is divided by 10).

This year's top player, presumably Wright, gets (30^2)*88/10 points added to his all-time total. That's 7,920 points, about the difference between David Cone and John Milner.

[Zvon]

Edgy DC wrote: They are re-evaluated. Feel free to go the rankings forum and add your voice to any season in which Trachs is ranked. The new list is factored in by everybody having his rank (the top guy getting a rank of 30) squared, multiplied by 88 (Met wins), divided by 10 (to chop a zero off the end, every score is divided by 10). This year's top player, presumably Wright, gets (30^2)*88/10 points added to his all-time total. That's 7,920 points, about the difference between David Cone and John Milner.

wow.
very interesting.
very kool.
I will go check that out.
Thanks

[metsmarathon]

see, the current players aren't evaluated against past mets, they are evaluated against their teammates.

when a player begins his tenure as a met, he begins to accrue points towards his ultimate ranking, starting from zero. the more he plays, the more he plays well, and the more the mets win with him, the more points he will accrue. his contributions are considered relevant to single years, as what happened in the past stays in the past, and what will happen in teh future will stay in the future.

for instance, should reyes' slump at the end of this year affect how he performed last year, and how we ranked him? no. last year was last year. this year, he will be appropriately reprimanded for his struggles, in that he will be ranked lower and will therefore accrue fewer points.

a player can never be awarded negative points, and therefore can never see his cumulative point total slide backwards.

voters are encouraged to consider playoff performance in their rankings, however voters should also consider that without a player's regular season performance, the team may never have seen the postseason, so weigh accordingly.

re: trachsel, and steering this thread way off course, the mets have had only 29 pitchers with 500 or more ip. trachsel is 17th among them with an era+ of 102. he's 14th on strikeouts, 12th in innings pitched, is 10th in W/L%, and 10th in wins.

its not like we've had a great history of great players sticking around for a while. steve trachsel in our top 50 is what we get.