Morneau,Morneau ,Morneau ,Justin Morneau

[MFS62]

Someone told me there is a candy bar called "Pronk" sold in Cleveland.
Not sure if it was named after him, or he got the nickname after the candy.

Later

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Project and Donkey

]He is often referred to by the nickname "Pronk", which combined two nicknames "Project" and "Donkey," originally suggested by former teammate Bill Selby during spring training of 2003.

-Wikipedia

[metirish]

Gaffner on Jeter...

] Jeter don't care 'bout stinkin' metal November 22, 2006 Maybe this is Derek Jeter's destiny: to be the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP award. The way it seems to be Mariano Rivera's peculiar lot in life to be the best reliever in the game's history but not have an official piece of hardware to ever prove it. Jeter got beaten in a squeaker for the AL MVP yesterday, losing out to Twins first baseman Justin Morneau by 14 points and three first-place votes. And while this wasn't remotely the major-league snub that Willie Randolph suffered last week in the manager-of-the-year voting, Yankees fans will still cry foul, spewing venom all over the airwaves, outraged that their beloved shortstop and captain was cruelly robbed because of some wicked combination of anti-New York, anti-Yankee, and anti-Jeter bias. Which, in fact, might be true. It's simply that the fans here wanted so much to embrace a Jeter MVP year this winter, as much as they refused to ever wrap their arms around Alex Rodriguez's MVP in 2005, after another of his postseason no-shows. It will always be the difference between the two Yankees superstars � Jeter, the insider, forever loved and cheered no matter what he does, no matter what his transgressions or achievements; A-Rod, the outsider, booed for the slightest of reasons, eyed with nothing but suspicion at every turn, MVP winner or not. The reason is no more complicated than Jeter always finding a way to show up when it counts, while A-Rod keeps disappearing, one big moment after the other, coming up so much smaller than the sum of his supremely talented parts. And because, rightly or wrongly, the fans sense that in the end A-Rod is all about A-Rod, a guy who cares more about MVPs and hitting titles and accumulated homers than about World Series rings. To Jeter, it's clear personal things have never meant a thing to him. Never will. So you will not hear any bitter words from Jeter today or tomorrow, or in the days after that, about not being named the MVP or about being better than Morneau or about being cheated out of the only thing he doesn't own yet. Not only is that not Jeter's style. It's not the way he views the game or his career. He has never defined himself by chunks of metal on a pedestal, has never measured his worth by the numbers. "The numbers," he has reminded me so many times, "don't often tell the whole story." And he's right, of course. I mean, how do you possibly measure with a mere stat his Famous Flip in Game 3 of the 2001 AL division series, his Famous Dive into the Stands in 2004, his Famous November 10th-Inning Game-Winning Homer in the 2001 World Series? How do you capture fully Jeter's amazing consistency for 12 seasons? And how does something like what Tim McCarver once told me, that "Jeter is the best baserunner in the game, especially going from first to third," get truly reflected anywhere? What's interesting this time around is that for once, after all these years, the numbers came close to matching the totality of the player. He hit .343 and almost copped the AL batting title. He had a .417 on-base percentage. He scored 118 runs and knocked in another 97. He stole a career-high 34 bases and won the Gold Glove at short. And with men in scoring position, he batted an outrageous .381, nearly a 100 points higher than Big Papi and 60 points higher than Morneau. All of which means a lot more to Yankees fans than to Jeter himself. He'll leave the outcry to them, as he just keeps doing what he does so well, the small and the large and everything in between to win games, not awards. Unlike A-Rod, Jeter knows who and what he is, secure in his own skin, doesn't need any pat on the back from the fans or the media or an awards committee or anyone else to tell him what kind of job he's doing. He doesn't need the MVP stamp of approval the way A-Rod does so desperately. Everything Jeter is about is on the fingers of one hand. The four that are crowned with Yankees championship rings. That's his lasting legacy � even if his destiny, strangely, doesn't include anything else. Michael P. Geffner's column appears regularly. Derek Jeter/Case File Age: 32 Years in the bigs: 12 Greatest achievements: 1996 AL rookie of the year, 2000 World Series MVP, 2000 All-Star Game MVP, seven-time AL All-Star, three-time AL Gold Glove, four World Championships, five seasons with 200 or more hits (more than any shortstop in major-league history), Yankees team captain from June 2003 to present. Career highlights The Famous Flip: Seventh inning of Game 3 of the 2001 ALDS against the A's, when in one motion he retrieved outfielder Shane Spencer's errant relay throw in foul territory and shovel-passed it to catcher Jorge Posada, who tagged out Jeremy Giambi at the plate. The Famous Dive: On July 1, 2004, with the score tied against the Red Sox in the 12th inning, Jeter sprinted for a popup and made a running one-handed catch that forced him to smack into the left-field wall and topple headfirst into the stands. Jeter emerged � ball still safely in glove � bruised and bloodied, with lacerations on his chin and cheek. The Famous Homer: His game-winning, 10th-inning shot in Game 4 of the 2001 World Series against the Diamondbacks that came four minutes after midnight on Nov. 1, briefly earning him the nickname of "Mr. November." Greatest career dis by his peers: Voted the most overrated player in the game by a Sports Illustrated poll of 470 players this past September. Carlos Beltran was second and Alex Rodriguez third. Said a smiling Jeter about the dubious distinction: "I don't care. I guess anything I do now is a plus." Greatest career dis by a teammate: Outfielder Chad Curtis, who in August of 1999 got in Jeter's face for playfully sparring with then-Seattle shortstop Alex Rodriguez on the fringes of a nasty brawl between the Yankees and Mariners. In the clubhouse afterward, Curtis loudly accused Jeter of, in essence, being a bad teammate. Jeter never said a word to Curtis again and Curtis was dealt to the Rangers before the end of the year. The Yankees' message: Mess with Jeter and you're as good as gone. To this day, the normally unflappable Jeter gets visibly heated at the mere mention of Curtis' name. Loves: Being on the baseball field, talking about his teammates, women who appear on the cover of Maxim or FHM, eating ordered-in Chinese food while watching a flick on his DVD player. Hates: Questions about his private life, talking about himself, selfish players, being mentioned in gossip columns, losing at anything ("If you're going to play at all, you're out to win," he once said. "Baseball, board games, playing Jeopardy, I hate to lose."). Main squeeze: Actress Jessica Biel, voted the "sexiest woman alive" by Esquire in 2005. Past main squeezes: Mariah Carey, actresses Jordana Brewster, Scarlett Johansson and Jessica Alba, MTV personality Vanessa Minnillo (currently dating Jessica Simpson's ex hubby, Nick Lachey), and Indian actress and former Miss Universe Lara Dutta. Major strength: Utterly cool under pressure. Major weakness: Guarded to a ridiculous degree, to where he trusts virtually no one (Even Jeter admits that he wishes he could get rid of this trait). "When people come at me, my first reaction is to wonder what their motive is," he once said. Pet peeve: Teammates who talk too much to the media, or the media talking too long to one of his teammates. "What are you doing, writing a book about this guy?" is Jeter's favorite line, which is code for both parties to end the interview ASAP. Telling comment: After Joe DiMaggio died, Jeter said of him: "He was the type of guy that kept to himself. Even if you hear his old teammates talk, he just showed up and played; he didn't really say too much. He kept his private life private. I think when people don't know a lot about you, there is this certain mystique, and I think people had that sense about him." Nicknames: Jete, DJ Idol growing up: Dave Winfield. Made Jeter want to be a Yankee. Had Winfield's poster on his bedroom wall. Best friend on the Yankees: Jorge Posada. The two are inseparable. Biggest career controversy: Nearly four years ago, Steinbrenner ripped Jeter in spring training, claiming that his shortstop was more interested in staying out late club-hopping than working out early. Jeter was, understandably, irked by the criticism and totally disputed it publicly. The two later made up and parodied the feud with a Visa Card commercial. Trivial facts: His junior high school yearbook in Kalamazoo, Mich. dubbed him "most likely to play shortstop for the New York Yankees" ... was interviewed for a 2005 segment of 60 Minutes by the recently deceased Ed Bradley ... is reportedly Bob Dylan's favorite baseball player ... hosted Saturday Night Live in 2001 and in one skit dressed as a woman, playing Alfonso Soriano's wife, Candice ... went 155 plate appearances with the bases loaded before he finally hit his first grand slam on June 18, 2005 ... nearly drafted by the Reds in 1992 ... in 2002, his mitt was stolen from his locker by then-teammate Ruben Rivera and sold for $2,500 on the black market. Family: Father Charles, a drug counselor, is African-American; mother Dorothy, an accountant, is Irish-American. Has one sibling, a sister named Sharlee. Typical of what people say about Jeter: "He doesn't go up there thinking negatively. Failing doesn't scare him." - Joe Torre. Bottom line: Jeter shows up when it matters most, doing the little, the big, and everything in between to win games. It's the critical reason why Yankee fans love him to no end and loathe A-Rod with a passion. "The tougher the situation, the more fire Derek gets in his eyes. You can't teach that," Torre once said. Reader Reaction

[Guest Iubitul]

ok - it took me a day, but I finally got the thread title - nicely done...

[metsmarathon]

my toe! my toe!! my toe!!! stepped on my toe!!!!

i figured there was something to get, but only now on being prompted, do i think i've got it.

[Elster88]

Can someone explain it to the nitwits like myself?

[metirish]

Game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New Jersey Devils in 1994......at 4:24 of the second overtime at Madison Square Garden, Matteau scored on a wraparound on the left side of New Jersey's goaltender leading then rangers announcer Howie Rose to scream into the mic....."Matteau, Matteau, Matteau,Stephane Matteau...and there's one more hill to climb baby and it's Mount Vancouver"....one of the most famous goals in playoff history and a call that still gives me chills.......

[metirish]

I love youtube....here it is

[Guest ScarletKnight41]

Thanks irish!

I was following the Rangers back then (it was fun living in Manhattan at the time - I remember the cars all honking their horns when the Rangers won the whole thing ), but I don't follow hockey closely enough to remember those kinds of details.

[metirish]

Probably my fave call in all of sports......

[Frayed Knot]

Funny thing about that call is that when Howie went on the radio the next morning to talk about the game (he was still working for FAN at the time - tho this was as a guest on someone else's show) he had just woken up and so was hearing his own call for the first time. His first reaction was to be somewhat embarrassed by it. He thought he had lost his cool and overdid it a bit, reacting as a fan rather than describing. Eventually, of course, it became the call for which he was most famous and when he left FAN a few years later to take the job with the (gasp!) Islanders that was what the majority of fans called him about during his final week on the station.

[metirish]

Didn't know that FK,thanks...Howie is a great announcer in hockey and baseball....as a Rangers fan I would take him over Sam Rosen...and yeah maybe he came accross more as a fan in that call but it had been so long coming for the rangers that it would be hard to fault him on that.....

[Frayed Knot]

It's kinda like the Bobby Thompson call.
Russ Hodges was the Giants announcer and he became famous for his somewhat out of control call on the 'Shot Heard Round the World'. Meanwhile, Dodger announcer Red Barber - who had the longer and more distinguished career and came from the school of; 'just report the action, don't become part of it' - gave a much more sober 'just the facts ma'am' type of call which has been largely lost to history. Barber reportedly hated Hodges's take on it and wasn't at all pleased that the "less professional" one became the signature soundtrack.

[metirish]

Russ Hodges call might be my sacond fave ever...I love it...when I first heard it at it was when the HOF did a traveling exhibit at the Met IIRC..I stood and listened to that call for an hour....it gives me chills.

[Elster88]

metirish wrote: Game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New Jersey Devils in 1994......at 4:24 of the second overtime at Madison Square Garden, Matteau scored on a wraparound on the left side of New Jersey's goaltender leading then rangers announcer Howie Rose to scream into the mic....."Matteau, Matteau, Matteau,Stephane Matteau...and there's one more hill to climb baby and it's Mount Vancouver"....one of the most famous goals in playoff history and a call that still gives me chills.......

Ah. That explains why I'm clueless. I don't really believe that hockey exists.

[nymr83]

Hockey has alot in common with the sports we love, for example FOX has found ways to fuck it up, from highlighting the puck to covering the lower 3rd of the screen with advertisement for FOX shows in a 3-2 game with little time left.

[metirish]

Good article here....

] Reporters doing voting: Write-on, or bad idea? BY JIM BAUMBACH Newsday Staff Writer November 26, 2006 The e-mail inbox of Chicago sportswriter Joe Cowley has been flooded ever since the American League MVP announcement earlier this week, and a few of the 500 messages have included some downright disgusting words from Yankees fans. A few choice e-mails that made Cowley cringe: "Hope your cancer comes back." "Hope you have a short life." What did Cowley do to deserve such hatred? The White Sox beat reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times put Derek Jeter sixth on his MVP ballot - lower than any other voter. It didn't cost Jeter the award, but it quickly made Cowley the poster boy for the anti-Jeter vote. "People want to write stuff like that, e-mail stuff like that, that's fine. That's part of it. It's no big deal," he said. "But when you read stuff like that, you want to step back and remind these people this is a baseball game." Some sports editors believe this is only the latest example why reporters should not vote for awards such as MVP and Cy Young. They don't believe a reporter should be a household name because of his vote. "I wouldn't want one of my reporters in that position," Los Angeles Times sports editor Randy Harvey said. Cowley's week included many interviews with reporters and radio shows, including a contentious exchange with WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog. All because of his vote for an award, not his job as a reporter. "Voting on awards like this puts reporters in the position of making the news, and that's not our job," said Tom Jolly, sports editor of The New York Times. "Our job is to report on the news, not to make it." And they're not the only sports editors who feel that way. This is the 75th year baseball writers have voted for the MVP, but the pool of voters clearly is declining. The New York Times and Washington Post have not allowed their reporters to vote for two decades because of ethical issues, and during the last two years, they have been joined by The Los Angeles Times, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, Baltimore Sun, South Florida Sun-Sentinel and Palm Beach Post, along with The Associated Press. Newsday allows its reporters to vote but did not have a vote in this year's MVP race. "While we've always done it, it's definitely something we're reconsidering," Newsday sports editor Hank Winnicki said. There are two votes from every American League city for the awards, and the votes are disbursed to newspapers on a rotating basis. In turn, the decision by newspapers to pull out has caused a problem for the Baseball Writers Association of America. In a small market such as Atlanta, it's impossible to replace the votes that would have been placed by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution reporters. "That's essentially a one- newspaper town, so I have to assign five national writers to be on the committees for down there," said Jack O'Connell, longtime secretary and treasurer of the BBWAA. "I try to keep it as regional as possible [in choosing replacement voters], and I make sure that it's strictly national writers." Because there are several other one-newspaper markets, there is potential for a major problem if newspapers continue to pull out. "Obviously, if the Houston Chronicle, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch come up with similar things," O'Connell said, "we'll have serious problems in those chapters." But not every sports editor agrees with the latest industry trend. Joe Sullivan, sports editor of The Boston Globe, is one of the fiercest defenders of allowing baseball reporters to vote on the sport's biggest awards. "This is a franchise we shouldn't surrender," he said. "Our expertise produces the best results. I think we would do a disservice by not voting. The argument is made that somehow it is a conflict of interest in the sense we're voting on the people we cover and we shouldn't make the news ... If The Boston Globe started giving out a most valuable player award, then we would be making news." Sullivan and other supporters of the polling process point to the lack of an obvious alternative system. But Jolly believes that shouldn't be a newspaper's concern, anyway. "I feel in a lot of these cases a reporter is put in the position of doing a job for a different organization," he said. "If Major League Baseball players and the league want to designate an MVP and these kind of awards, why don't they go ahead and do it with their own system?

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Yankee-hack Tom Verducci got a little testy because his boy Jeter didn't get the award. Verducci's world is so Yankee-centric that you can't take him seriously. His rant about the postseason being horrible was so transparent -- if the Yankees aren't involved, Tommy loses interest -- that it was good for a belly laugh.

His little Jeter tirade here from si.com is nearly as good.



"Can somebody please wake up the baseball writers before they give out more dumb MVP awards based on RBIs? Both Derek Jeter and Joe Mauer (who, incredibly, was not even listed on five ballots!) were robbed when the writers gave the award to Justin Morneau. Morneau hit .235 as late into the season as June 8 and, despite the propaganda of a huge second half, actually was outhomered by Jeter (7-6) down the stretch (after July 31). Jeter, the far more consistent player, drove in greater percentages of runners from second and third than Morneau (who had 25 more such runners than Jeter). And their VORP rating? Jeter ranked third in baseball, behind only Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard of the NL, and Morneau ranked 26th! And the importance of defense for a shortstop and catcher far outweigh the defensive quotient of a first baseman. It's sad to think too many baseball writers still vote the old, unsophisticated way: check the home run and RBI leaders for a player on a first-place team."

Hey Tommy, want some cheese with that whine?

[Guest Edgy DC]

It would help if he gave more than a passing nod to Mauer.

And there's nothing old about being unsophisiticated --- at least sophistication as far as recongnzing that contributions are more dear when they come from up-the-middle defenders. In the fifties, 13 of the 17 MVP awards that went to non-pitchers (yes, they were sophisticated enough to consider pitchers players) went to players who played catcher, second, short, or center.

[Vic Sage]

I could understand it going to Ortiz, Ramirez, Hafner or even Dye, if they were going on pure offensive production. And i could understand it going to mauer or Jeter, if one were to factor in defense, winning and "intangibles".

But Morneau, while he had a terrific 2nd half, did not have the offensive numbers of the 1st group. His numbers were actually comparable to Jeter and Mauer, and so you'd have to go with an up-the-middle position player over a 1st baseman, if the numbers are the least bit comparable.

I think its ok for writers to vote for awards... just not STUPID writers.

[metsmarathon]

ok... i hate myself for doing this...

i just kinda sorta made a case for morneau, and it doesn't really require too much in the way of mental gymnastics and statistical calisthenics.

basically, i looked at production after the all star game.

took the 100 AL players with the most at bats.

then i ranked them by:
R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS
and took the average.

justin morneau came in second, behind vlad guerrero. jeter was third.
those results held up pretty well when i cut the list down to top 75, 50, and finally when i cut it down to the players with the 25 most at bats, justin morneau came out first, mostly because vlad finally dropped off hte list.

anyways... these are the results of the rankings.

			100	75	50	25
26	V Guerrero	OF	1	1	1
7	J Morneau	1B	2	2	2	1
67	D Ortiz	DH	3	3
4	D Jeter	SS	4	4	3	2
60	C Guillen	SS	5	6
9	G Sizemore	OF	6	5	4	3
21	M Teixeira	1B	8	8	6	5
35	R Sexson	1B	8	7	5
5	M Cuddyer	OF	9	9	7	4
61	C Lee	OF	10	12
48	A Rodriguez	3B	11	11	8
38	J Dye	OF	12	10	10
28	N Markakis	OF	14	13	9
81	M Teahen	3B	14
77	R Cano	2B	15
51	F Thomas	DH	16	14
31	L Overbay	1B	17	15	11
64	J Mauer	C	18	21
37	J Rivera	OF	19	17	12
2	M Young	SS	20	16	13	6

this doesnt account for any amount of weighing one stat more than another, or trying to estimate actual worth to a team, or defense, or playing for a contender/winner. its just me being intentionally somewhat dumb, and seeing what "the numbers" tell me.

and after the all star break, you could almost kinda sorta say that if justin morneau wasn't the most productive offensive player, then he was the second most productive, and therefore could be considered a legit player to vote for as the league's MVP.

and to be honest, i was really expecting this "analysis" to turn out differently.

i'm gonna totally do this again for the NL...

and of course, it is paramount to my self-interest to say that i do not consider this to be a good way to determine who the MVP is or should be, only that its a method that crossed my mind.

if i could get at league-wide stats that only showed me post all star game in close and late situations, then i'd really be onto something that'd tell me if hte voters were really voting for what they claim to be voting for, whether or not i agree with them.

[metsmarathon]

and in the NL, my super-dumb methodology yields a surprise winner -

Garret Atkins!

WTF!!!

			100	75	50	25
7	G Atkins	3B	1	1	1	1
13	A Pujols	1B	2	2	2	2
19	A Ramirez	3B	3	3	3	3
2	J Rollins	SS	4	5	5	5
28	R Howard	1B	5	4	4
6	R Furcal	SS	6	6	6	4
27	M Cabrera	3B	8	7	7
33	R Durham	2B	8	8	9
23	M Holliday	OF	9	9	8	7
3	C Utley	2B	10	11	11	8
47	L Berkman	1B	11	10	10
64	C Beltran	OF	12	13
5	H Ramirez	SS	13	12	12	6
73	L Scott	OF	14	20
24	A Gonzalez	1B	15	14	13	9
21	O Hudson	2B	16	15	15	11
9	T Helton	1B	17	17	17	12
11	A Soriano	OF	18	17	14	10
44	B McCann	C	19	18	16
55	A LaRoche	1B	20	20

[nymr83]

]basically, i looked at production after the all star game. took the 100 AL players with the most at bats. then i ranked them by: R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS and took the average.

theres many problems with this but here are a few:
why only post all-star? if its because you believe the MVP is the guy who helped histeam down the stretch then you should eliminate players on bad teams and teams that coasted.
weighing "CS" equal to any of these categories is probably a bad idea, you'd be better off with "net steals" in place of SB and CS. TB and SLG essentially double counts as does H and AVG (and to a lesser extent BB and OBP once you've already counted AVG) SO are arguably meaningless, if you're going to punish the guys who strike out you need to reward those who dont bounce into DPs (not coincidentally the same guys)
OPS is obviously OBP+SLG so i dont know why you'd count it again seperately unless you're trying to give extra weight to them (a value judgment i'd agree with but still)

i'd probably narrow it down to: R, RBI, OBP, and SLG. if you put a gun to my head and asked for 4 more i'd use PA, SB-CS, OPS+, and something that took defensive position into account if not defense itself (maybe using defense spectrum to assign a different multiplier to each position)

[stevejrogers]

metirish wrote: Gaffner on Jeter... ] Jeter don't care 'bout stinkin' metal November 22, 2006 Maybe this is Derek Jeter's destiny: to be the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP award. The way it seems to be Mariano Rivera's peculiar lot in life to be the best reliever in the game's history but not have an official piece of hardware to ever prove it.

No love to the Rolaids/DHL Fireman/Reliever of the Year which Mariano is a multiple time winner of, and has been around since the late 1970's.

While I understand someone's point in not recognizing anything other than the Big Three (MVP, CY and ROY) and to some extent the Gold Gloves and Manager of the Year have attained "conversation worthy" status, but lets not act like those are the only MLB recognized awards.

Along with "What, we're supposed to care about this now?" attitude about the Comeback Player of the Year when Giambi was nominated for the AL (not a singular MLB award as many in the media seemed to think last year when they argued Griffey OVER Giambi) this lack of caring about the "lesser" MLB awards (and there actually was a time when TSN awards actually carried some weight as well) is certainly food for thought for why is ANY of this worthy of our time and discussion if people just pick and choose which awards are considered "official pieces of hardware" to them.

To me it's all fun debate and even if there is no love for the Reliever award, the Aaron award, Silver Sluggers, Comeback, Clemente and other awards given out, and even if you still follow the TSN awards, it is nice when a Met picks one up.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Fan-voted awards are silly things. Period.

Did the editors mean "medal" when they wrote "metal" or is "metal" some sort of collective noun for awards?

[metirish]

Is Jeter really the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP?.....Piazza anyone...

[Guest Edgy DC]

Thank you. I'd love a Piazza.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Fan-voted awards are silly things. Period. Did the editors mean "medal" when they wrote "metal" or is "metal" some sort of collective noun for awards?

I'm guessing it's a euphemism for Hardware.

[stevejrogers]

metirish wrote: Is Jeter really the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP?.....Piazza anyone...

ManRam also comes to mind in Jeter's own LEAGUE!

[metirish]

Manram???........Manny....well yeah there's a good one....good call Steveo