Trouble with Team Names, split from World Series IGT

[stevejrogers]

="Willets Point"]It would be cool if they just went by their English name: The Georgetown Whats. I once went to summer school at Georgetown and they have a convenience store called Saxa Sundries which at least signifies an awareness of the the origin of the school nickname on campus.

WHAT!?

[Guest patona314]

metirish wrote: Quinn is not even close to the # 1 pick...at least from what I read...GO IRISH..what a load of bollox..it's insulting. As a person from Ireland I find the whole ND thing insulting to my culture...I want nothing to do with it...

that is a load of crap. anything that glorifies your culture the way that ND does, should be embraced.

ND is special. (btw i'm a penn state fan)

in a sports world that embraces politically incorrect identities (redskins, etal) you should be proud of the fighting irish.

I'm a kraut (aka german). If there was a team called the "fighting Krauts", half this country would flip the fuck out.

[metirish]

It glorifies my culture in what way?......

[Guest patona314]

metirish wrote: It glorifies my culture in what way?......

you're an american.

irish+italian+german+polish+indian+etc=american.

your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light.

thank god your'e not french

[Guest Edgy DC]

patona314 wrote: your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light.

That's a pretty broad, and less than accurate, generalization.

[metirish]

I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times...

[Guest patona314]

metirish wrote: I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times...

why

[Guest patona314]

Edgy DC wrote: ="patona314"]your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light. That's a pretty broad, and less than accurate, generalization.

melting pot?

[metirish]

Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit.....

[Guest patona314]

metirish wrote: Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit.....

so you do not think that irish culture is imbedded into american culture?

if you don't, you are wrong.

[nymr83]

Hail! (to a great waste of the seaver post)

[Guest patona314]

patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit..... so you do not think that irish culture is imbedded into american culture? if you don't, you are wrong.

that was soooo cool

[metirish]

Of course Irish culture is part of this country...my point is that I hate the stereotypes...and not just of irish culture...

[Guest patona314]

metirish wrote: Of course Irish culture is part of this country...my point is that I hate the stereotypes...and not just of irish culture...

i'll give you this.. I went to a bbq last weekend and met a neighbor's wife who was the hottest (I MEAN HOTTEST) red head i have ever seen in my life (freckles and all). If it wasn't for my hot scottish/german wife, i might have been killed by the red head's italian husband.

[stevejrogers]

patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why

Four words:

Irish Need Not Apply.

[Guest patona314]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="patona314"] ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply.

that was a little rough

my people tried to take over the world, do you think the same about me?

[stevejrogers]

http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm

]Irish Immigrants in America during the 19th Century Though life in Ireland was cruel, emigrating to America was not a joyful event...it was referred to as the American Wake for these people knew they would never see Ireland again. Those who pursued this path did so only because they new their future in Ireland would only be more poverty, disease, and English oppression. America became their dream. Early immigrant letters described it as a land of abundance and urged others to follow them through the "Golden Door." These letters were read at social events encouraging the young to join them in this wonderful new country. They left in droves on ships that were so crowded, with conditions so terrible, that they were referred to as Coffin Ships. Even as the boat was docking, these immigrants to America learned that life in America was going to be a battle for survival. Hundreds of runners, usually large greedy men, swarmed aboard the ship grabbing immigrants and their bags trying to force them to their favorite tenement house and then exact an outrageous fee for their services. As the poor immigrant had no means of moving on, they settled in the port of arrival. Almshouses were filled with these Irish immigrants. They begged on every street. One honest immigrant wrote home at the height of the potato famine exodus, "My master is a great tyrant, he treats me as badly as if I was a common Irishman." The writer further added, "Our position in America is one of shame and poverty." No group was considered lower than an Irishman in America during the 1850s. Free land did not lure them. They rejected the land for the land had rejected them; yet even so they always spoke reverently of the old sod in Ireland. All major cities had their "Irish Town" or "Shanty Town" where the Irish clung together. Our immigrant ancestors were not wanted in America. Ads for employment often were followed by "NO IRISH NEED APPLY." They were forced to live in cellars and shanties, partly because of poverty but also because they were considered bad for the neighborhood...they were unfamiliar with plumbing and running water. These living conditions bred sickness and early death. It was estimated that 80% of all infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City died. Their brogue and dress provoked ridicule; their poverty and illiteracy provoked scorn. The Chicago Post wrote, "The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country." Instead of apologizing for themselves they united and took offense. Insult or intimidation was often met with violence. Solidarity was their strength, they helped each other survive city life. They prayed and drank together. The men seemed to do more drinking than praying, yet it was their faith and dogged determination to become Americans that led one newspaper to say, "The Irish have become more Americanized than the Americans." The Church played an integral part in their lives. It was a militant Church--a Church who fought not only for their souls but also for their human rights. After the religious riots in Philadelphia where many Catholic churches were burned, the mayor of New York asked Archbishop Hughes, "Do you fear that some of your churches will be burned." "No sir, but I am afraid some of yours will be. We can protect our own." Later, public officials asked the Archbishop to restrain New York's Irish. "I have not the power," he said. "You must take care that they are not provoked." No Catholic church burned in New York. Actually the Irish arrived at a time of need for America. The country was growing and it needed men to do the heavy work of building bridges, canals, and railroads. It was hard, dangerous work, a common expression heard among the railroad workers was "an Irishman was buried under every tie." Desperation drove them to these jobs. Not only the men worked, but the women too. They became chamber maids, cooks, and the caretakers of children. Early Americans disdained this type of work, fit only for servants, the common sentiment being, "Let Negroes be servants, and if not Negroes, let Irishmen fill their place..." The Blacks hated the Irish and it appeared to be a mutual feeling. They were the first to call the Irish "white nigger." A prominent hotel keeper was asked why all the women servants in his hotel were Irish. He replied, "The thing is very simple: the Irish girls are industrious, willing, cheerful, and honest--they work hard, and they are very strictly moral. I should say that is quite reason enough." The Irish were unique among immigrants. They fiercely loved America but never gave up their allegiance to Ireland...and they kept their hatred of the English. Twice they tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. In New York City, during the Civil War, they rioted against the draft lottery after the first drawing showed most of the names were Irish. For three days the city was terrorized by Irish mobs and only after an appeal for peace by Archbishop Hughes did it end. In Pennsylvania they formed a secret organization called the Molly Maguires to fight mine owners who brutalized the miners and their families. They ambushed mine bosses, beat, and even killed them in their homes. The Irish used brutal methods to fight brutal oppression. They loved America and gladly fought in her wars. During the Civil War they were fierce warriors, forming among other groups, the famous "Irish Brigade". A priest accompanied them and, before each battle, they would pray together before charging into the enemy--even against insurmountable odds. Their faith guided them. They felt the English might have a better life on earth, but they were going to have a better life after death. The days of "No Irish Need Apply" passed. St.Patrick day paraded replaced violent confrontations. The Irish not only won acceptance for their day, but persuaded everyone else to become Irish at least for St.Patrick's Day. The Orangemen or New York City copied the St.Pat's Day parade in 1870 and, as they marched, played "Boyne Water", "Derry" and other songs derogatory towards the Catholics. Fights broke out and only the police (themselves mostly Irish) saved the Orangemen and women. The next year another Orange parade was scheduled...the police banned it. The appearance of large numbers of Jews, Slavs, and Italian immigrants led many Americans to consider the Irish an asset; their Americanization was now recognized. Hostility shifted from the Irish to the new nationalities. Through poverty and subhuman living conditions, the Irish tenaciously clung to each other. With their ingenuity for organization, they were able to gain power and acceptance. In 1850 at the crest of the Potato Famine immigration, Orestes Brownson, a celebrated convert to Catholicism, stated: "Out of these narrow lanes, dirty streets, damp cellars, and suffocating garrets, will come forth some of the noblest sons of our country, whom she will delight to own and honor." In little more than a century his prophecy rang true. Irish-Americans had moved from the position of the despised to the oval office.

[stevejrogers]

patona314 wrote: ="SteveJRogers"] patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply. that was a little rough my people tried to take over the world, do you think the same about me?

Read the quoted text, that is from actual advertizments for work during the 1800's in cities like New York and Chicago.

The Irish struggle in this country is was a hard fought one.

[Guest patona314]

understood

[Elster88]

I always thought Fightin Irish meant the football team...so that it was the Notre Dame Irish, and they fought hard to win games. I don't see where the insult is.

[DocTee]

The mascot is far worse than the nickname.

IIRC, the first president of ND was a chaplain in the fmaed irish Brigade, which had fought valorously in the Civil War, erasing many of the negative images and stereotypes of antebellum Irish immigrants (many continued, however, and the No Irish need Apply period is more accurate of the 1890s). At the Battle of Fredericksburg, the Brigade earned the sobriquet "Fighting Irish" and when the chaplain moved to academe, the nickname was adopted aas a testament to his (and thousands of others) contributions.

Unfortuantely many Irish-Americans buy not just ND paraphenalia but the image that their culture should embrace pugnacity (and drinking)...As George Carlin (an Irish American) posits: why not get all the stereotypes out of the way and call them the Brawling, Drinking, Short-Dicked Irish??

And that fucking leprechaun is just stupid and offensive

[metsmarathon]

="Edgy DC"]We have to look at this with some degree of nuance. There's a difference between calling a team after a local tribe and calling them Redskins There's a difference between "Irish" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference between "Fighting Illini" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference betewen "Irish" and "Leprechaun." This all began with an inability to make distinctions, as the University was founded by a French order, not an Irish one, and has been mispronounced (like most francophonic things in the midwest throughout most of their history). It was this big Catholic University and at a time when most Americans didn't make much distinction between Irish and Catholic, they accepted the label "Irish" when they should have resisted it.

well, c'mon... is not like they could've called themselves the fightin' french, and expected to win a game!

[metsmarathon]

]Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom.

well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about...

[MFS62]

In Blazing Saddles, Mel Brooks spoofed the Jewish "Lost Tribe" legend by having the Indians speak Yiddish.
But he also alluded to the Anti-Irish sentiment of the (I'll guess) 1890s in one scene.
The railroad workers meet with the townspeople to try to unite to save the town from the railroad barrons who want to build the railroad through their town. The workers say they will help, in exchange for land of their own in the saved town.
The mayor says (something like), "We'll take the Chinks (Chineese) and Niggers (no explanation necessary), but no Irish."
Then he relents by saying "Wellll, all right".

Later

[DocTee]

]Quote: Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about...

Shameless plug:

Check out my dissertation: Erin's Hope: The Fenian Brotherhood of New York City, 1858-1886

[RealityChuck]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="patona314"] ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply.

That's a myth: http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm

Summarizing, there is no evidence anywhere that this was used in advertisements for workers at any time. All uses of that phrase are tied back to a popular song that used it.

Key finding:

]An electronic search of all the text of the several hundred thousand pages of magazines and books online at Library of Congress, Cornell University Library and the University of Michigan Library, and complete runs of The New York Times and The Nation, turned up about a dozen uses of NINA. 17 The complete text of New York Times is searchable from 1851 through 1923. Although the optical character recognition is not perfect (some microfilmed pages are blurry), it captures most of the text. A search of seventy years of the daily paper revealed only two classified ads with NINA�one posted by a Brooklyn harness shop that wanted a boy who could write, and a request for a couple to take charge of a cottage upstate. 18

[DocTee]

Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant.

[metirish]

When the Baseball HOF did a traveling show a few years back I went to the city to see it, on display was a newspaper ad looking for a 3rd baseman....NINA was part of the ad..

[DocTee]

to be fair, I have seen ads in Irish American periodicals from the period that said "Help wanted; none but Irish need apply"

[Guest Edgy DC]

http://www.nd.edu/~sheridan/fighting%20Irish.jpgDoc Tee and Edgy DC share a field of study. Who'd have thought it?

As Tee alluded to, the problem is with the nuance of "Fighting," where, if it was ever meant in the same way as Fighting Illini, as in "they who fight bravely on behalf of their nation on the field of honor," it has come to mean "they who comically love a good pugnacious scrap."

The logo isn't a proud celt soberly decked in battle regalia. The logo is a brawling fairy! How is that not as stupid as a grinning idiot Indian?