2006 Crane Pool Forum Rankings Thread

[Frayed Knot]

And now that our season's over (moment of silence) ... it's never too early to start contemplating this year's rankings project!!

Going to be an interesting year to analyze.
Hitters should dominate the top of the list over the pitchers. But a lot of good 'partial-year' guys - Duaner, Nady, Mota, Perez, El Duque, and even Pedro for that matter - have to be balanced among some full-season guys who didn't contribute all that much like Franco, Woodward & Castro

For any newbies who haven't seen this before and want to participate;
- we rank the top 30 2006 Mets as far as their contributions to this season: ranked from the best (30) down to least (1) although, with 49 different 2006 Mets, there'll be 19 players who are going to wind up even below the guy in 30th place
- Participation isn't mandatory (nothing is around here) but you can submit your own list or just critique the submissions of others. We eventually come up with some sort of consensus from everything submitted.
- participants are free to choose any method you want to come up with your answer; from strict statistical analysis to pure gut reaction to anywhere in between ... just be prepared to defend and explain your choices, or even adjust them if swayed by the arguments of others
- post-season performance SHOULD be considered in your list, although to what degree is your choice
- and, in case you haven't figured it out already, the results of this will combine with the other years to contribute to the order of players who accompany your posting totals (see; 'Rankings for Dummies' thread)


The roster of choices:

[u:bubz5o8r]Position Players (22) Sorted by Plate Appearances[/u:bubz5o8r]:
Reyes - Wright - Delgado - Beltran - LoDuca
Valentin - Chavez - Floyd - Nady - Woodward
Milledge - Franco - Castro - Matsui - Green
Tucker - A Hernandez - Marrero - Ledee - DeFelice
Stinnett - Diaz

[u:bubz5o8r]Pitchers (27) Sorted by Innings Pitched[/u:bubz5o8r]:
Glavine - Trachsel - Martinez - OHernandez - Maine
Heliman - Oliver - Wagner - Bradford - Feliciano
Sanchez - Soler - Bell - Bannister - Perez
Williams - Julio - Pelfrey - Zambrano - RHernandez
Mota - Lima - Gonzalez - Ring - Owens
Fortunado - Humber

Edited October 20, 2006 by Guest

[TransMonk]

Mostly from the gut:

30 Beltran
29 Reyes
28 Wright
27 LoDuca
26 Delgado
25 Glavine
24 Feliciano
23 Sanchez
22 O. Hernandez
21 Wagner
20 Heilman
19 Valentin
18 Oliver
17 Bradford
16 Chavez
15 Maine
14 Martinez
13 Trachsel
12 Nady
11 Floyd
10 Green
9 Franco
8 Mota
7 Castro
6 Woodward
5 Bannister
4 Soler
3 Perez
2 R. Hernandez
1 Milledge

[Frayed Knot]

I usually start sorting through the year by looking at the pitchers and position players seperately. Merging the two lists together is the tough part.
Here's what I'm thinking for the position players. Go ahead, tell me how delusional I am.

Beltran - Had the best year from start to finish. Led team in Runs Created & Win Shares, and played a very good CF

Reyes - A shade behind Wright in RC & WS, but played a better SS than Wright did 3B plus had a better post-season

Wright - 1st half MVP, slumped somewhat in the 2nd half then bombed in the NLCS

Delgado - I get the idea that the press view is that LoDuca is a near team MVP; "heart & soul" of the team and all that. But - his two month/mid-season slump aside - Delgado was a MUCH better hitter that all the "intangibles" plus the difference in defensive spectrum can't make up for.

LoDuca - Successfully manned the 2-slot in the lineup despite fears (from me & others here) that he couldn't. Only a decent defensive catcher really, but showed up every day and was very consistent.

Valentin - Best surprise of the year, falls below the other full-timers due to rough start and weak finish/playoff.

Chavez - He and Floyd had near identical ABs, but Endy had an edge on everything - speed, defense, versatility - except power

Floyd - Was either in a slump or getting hurt just as he was pulling out of a slump

Nady - Inconsistent and sometimes a scary fielder, but lots of big hits in the first half

Franco - #1 PH-er all year, had some big hits early despite obvious limitations.

Green - Not as good as fans wanted, but also not as bad as many acted

Woodward - big comedown from last year rates him the lowest of all the position players who were on the roster all year

Milledge - Better stats than Woodward, but looked overmatched at times and couldn't be trusted enough to get a post-season spot

Castro - Early season thoughts that he should have played more gave way to the reality that he was barely missed as he sat out the last 1/3 of the season

In a toss-up for the last 2 spots that could possibly survive until the final list, Tucker edges Matsui for being less of an out-machine plus a couple of post-season ABs.

Outside looking in: Marrero, LeDee, AHernandez, DeFelice, Stinnett, Diaz
None of these guys have a chance at cracking the final list once the pitchers are integrated.

[Elster88]

Does postseason performance factor in? If it's weighted by regular season wins I would guess not.

[Elster88]

Hitters/Fielders:

Beltran
Wright
Matsui
Reyes
Delgado
-------
Lo Duca
-------
Valentin
Chavez
Floyd
Nady
-------
Franco
Green
Woodward
Milledge
Castro

[Edgy MD]

Post-season counts. Though part of me thinks we shold rate post-season performance seperately, but we never have.

but showed up every day and was very consistent.

These are nearly the same trait.

[Frayed Knot]

"Does postseason performance factor in?"

[from the first post] ... "- post-season performance SHOULD be considered in your list, although to what degree is your choice"




"These are nearly the same trait"

Byte Me!

[Edgy MD]

Somebody's got a case of the Thursdays.

[Vic Sage]

30) Beltran - some ups and downs, but mostly ups; taking Strike 3 in game 7 doesn't overshadow a great season.

29) Reyes - developed his power ahead of schedule, making him a 5-tool SS. As Jose went, so went the Mets.

28) Wright - I love Mr. Wright, but he went from MVP candidate, to a player in a slump to a player in a tailspin in the post-season. Plus he showed more of a scattergun arm this year.

27) Delgado - despite his mid-season slump, he was an important bat in the lineup, with an excellent post-season, and his D was better than i expected. Plus, a solid veteran presence and leader.

26) Glavine - his best season as a Met. More hittable every year, but still can get a big out. solid Post-season.

25) Wagner - one of the top closers in the game; still, had his disastrous moments.

24) LoDuca - consistent .300 hitter, played every day. solid work with pitching staff that seemed to respect him. Lack of power, speed, BB, made him less than meets the eye, and he was no improvement over Piazza at stopping the running game. Frankly, i'd rather have had Piazza's bat in the lineup this year.

23) P.Martinez - solid 1st half (despite lack of Ws), but then he just came apart at the seams.

22) Valentin - After taking over 2b full-time, he had a career year, until late season/post-season collapse (ie, return to the mean).

21) Maine - solid during the season, came up big in WS.

20) Heilman - when he finally took over for Sanchez as primary setup guy, became dominant. not so hot in the post-season.

19) Chavez - super 4th OFer, but suffered, as Valentin did, toward end of season/post-season when he was overexposed as an everyday player.

18) Bradford - terrific all year in limited IP

17) Feliciano - solid specialist

16) Sanchez - great until hurt mid-season

15) Nady - we missed his RHed power in the lineup; better offensive contribution than i expected. Bad RFer, but its RF...

14) O.Hernandez - erratic at first, great down the stretch. absent in the post-season.

13) Green - punchless, but adequate. Good post-season.

12) Mota - terrific down the stretch; ok in post-season

11) Trachsel - Run support inflated Ws; mediocre all year, a disaster in the post-season.

10) Oliver - great for 2/3 of season, crappy down the stretch. Big moment in post-season

9) Floyd - a few moments, a good guy, but going, going, gone.

8) O.Perez - a few good starts down the stretch; big post-season

7) Franco - great PH-ing in 1st half; tailed off in 2nd half.

6) Milledge - had moments, but needs work.

5) Bannister - ok early, till hurt.

4) Tucker - a couple of big hits, played ok in limited opportunities.

3) Julio - decent MI, got us El Duque

2) Woodward - useless.

1) Castro - Useless and hurt.


[EDITED VERSION: 11/3/06]

Edited October 26, 2006 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

I don't think of this as a career year for Valentin. From 2000-2003, he showed more power with less OBP, but did it playing fulltime did it at shortstop.

[nymr83]

Elster88 wrote: Hitters/Fielders: Beltran Wright Matsui Reyes Delgado etc. Castro

this was done solely for my benefit wasn't it?

i agree mostly with Frayed Knot's hitter rankings above.

i'd like to question putting LoDuca ahead of Delgado (someone did that) Delgado was clearly the better hitter and even if the "defensive spectrum" put LoDuca ahead i'd argue that Delgado's postseason should have swung things back.

whoever it was that mentioned a choice between Tucker and other scrubs for the bottom of the list i'd go with Tucker by a longshot, check out that OBP in limited playing time, he wasn't hurting the Mets when he was in there.

[TransMonk]

Nymr83 wrote: i'd like to question putting LoDuca ahead of Delgado (someone did that) Delgado was clearly the better hitter and even if the "defensive spectrum" put LoDuca ahead i'd argue that Delgado's postseason should have swung things back.

I did that. You'd have to prove to me that Delgado was "clearly the better hitter", since LoDuca's average was 50+ points higher. Delgado hit a ton of homeruns, which we expected him to do, and he compiled a lot of walks due to the HRs he was hitting and the fact that Wright was hitting below expectations much of the 2nd half, but I would have liked to have seen Carlos' batting average closer to his career numbers.

There isn't a huge margin between the two as far as their worth to the team in 2006, in fact, I would put them about equal. They both thrived in their first year in New York, they both played their positions as well as expected, they both became leaders on the team, and they both provided fits for the spots they occupied in the batting order.

I listed LoDuca higher on the list because he was much more consistent all season long, he played through greater injuries and he handled a pitching staff that sent 12 different starting pitchers to the mound this year.

I'm not going to fight the fact that Delgado will be higher than LoDuca when the final list is compiled. In my opinion, I think that they were both great assets to the team and if Delgado is part of the "A tier" of hitters, then LoDuca would have to be there too.

[nymr83]

batting average is less important than OBP, where Delgado holds a slight edge, but the real difference is 120 points of slugging percentage, you just can't make up for that.

[Benjamin Grimm]

What surprised me was, that in our MVP Voting thread three people didn't even put Lo Duca in the top ten.

[TransMonk]

Chicks dig the long ball, stat debaters dig the OPS.

[seawolf17]

30 Reyes
29 Beltran
28 Delgado
27 Wright
26 LoDuca
25 Glavine
24 Wagner
23 Valentin
22 Heilman
21 Oliver
20 O. Hernandez
19 Feliciano
18 Bradford
17 Sanchez
16 Chavez
15 Maine
14 Martinez
13 Trachsel
12 Nady
11 Floyd
10 Franco
9 Green
8 Milledge
7 Woodward
6 Soler
5 Bannister
4 Mota
3 Perez
2 Tucker
1 Castro

[nymr83]

Wright had a better regular season than Delgado i think, if only barely... does Delgado's higher spot on your (Seawolf) list indicate a bump for the postseason or would you have had this same order on October 1st?

[seawolf17]

Nah, Wright's second half bothered me. (But apparently not as much as Delgado's first half bothered me.) David will have plenty of chances to top Seaver down the road; gotta keep him humble for now.

[Vic Sage]

TransMonk wrote: Chicks dig the long ball, stat debaters dig the OPS.

"stat debaters"?

people who attempt to use data to understand baseball "dig" the stats that have the highest correlation to run production and run prevention. OPS is certainly a good one, though there are some even better.

you "dig" stats, too, otherwise you wouldn't reference batting average to make a case for LoDuca. The problem is you're using a 19th century statistic, which was of some use before the invention of the microchip, but of dubious utility since then.

as for OPS, LoDuca ranked 6 out of the 8 hitters in the regular lineup (7th if you include Nady over Green, with only Chavez/Floyd ranking below the Duke). As a catcher, he ranked 7th out of 16 starting catchers in the NL, and tie for 12th out 30 teams in MLB.

now he certainly was a good guy to have on the team... leader, good with the pitchers, played every day, yyybbb. But a guy with over 500 ABs that drives in only 49 runs while hitting behind Jose Reyes (who scored 122 runs) demonstrates a serious lack of clout. He lacks power and speed, and (with only 24 walks) his BA is the sum total of his offensive contribution to a lineup. And it's not like he's got a howitzer that stifles the other team's running game.

So one has to really twist oneself into a pretzel to give anything but the most polite tip of the cap to Paul LoDuca.

MVP? Puhleez.

By the way, both Roberto Hernandez and Ben Molina had equivalent, if not better, offensive seasons, and both are better defensive catchers. And both were signed for around what LoDuca is getting paid, and acquiring them wouldn't have cost us players, to boot. Oh, and Piazza hit better, too.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Guest

[Vic Sage]

Edgy DC wrote: I don't think of this as a career year for Valentin. From 2000-2003, he showed more power with less OBP, but did it playing fulltime did it at shortstop.

your right of course. 2000-01 were both better years, and he also had a good year in 96 with Brewers. I should've said that this is is his best year in the last 5 seasons and, on a per/AB basis, this ranks along with the better years in his career. It certainly was not a season anyone anticipated at this point in his career.

[Edgy MD]

No, nobody anticipated it. Certainly not me.

But it at leasst reflects somewhat well on the Mets, in retrospect, to bring in enough interesting and considered options --- young and old --- that one of them panned out when Matsui didn't. Or maybe it was pure luck, but it reflects really well on Willie that when Valentin asked for his release early in the year, Minaya refused on Willie's advice, and Willie instead told him to get himself ready.

[Vic Sage]

absolutely. I give Omar props for the type of non-roster types he's brought in, and willie certainly saw something in Jose to give him the shot when Matsui cratered.

[TransMonk]

Vic Sage wrote: so one has to really twist oneself into a pretzel to give anything but the most polite tip of the cap to Paul LoDuca. MVP? Puhleez.

Well, I'm already doughy and salty, sooo...

No one is claiming that LoDuca is the MVP of this team. The argument, at least as I understand it, is if LoDuca meant as much to the 2006 team as Delgado did.

If games were played on Strat-o-matic or in sim leagues, then, yes, give me Delgado every time. However, rallys killed and playing with pain are not stats that appear on the back of baseball cards.

Delgado did an great job as a cleanup hitter as his SLG percentage would indicate. But he had some wicked slumps this year, and long strings where he was almost useless at the plate. LoDuca performed consistently nearly every time he was in the lineup despite a torn ligament in his thumb, and despite his not having good second halves in the past.

Comparing the value of a slugging cleanup hitter who getting exta base hits to the value of a consistent #2 hitter who can get the leadoff runner to third and not strike out is like comparing apples to bananas. In my opinion, consistent #2 hitters are harder to find than consistent cleanup hitters.

Having LoDuca hitting #2 makes everyone around him better, including Delgado. And like I said before, I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind. I just appreciate LoDuca's overall value to the team as much as Delgado's.

[Vic Sage]

If games were played on Strat-o-matic or in sim leagues, then, yes, give me Delgado every time. However, rallys killed and playing with pain are not stats that appear on the back of baseball cards.

there you go again. "Playing in pain" only matters if it leads to more runs scored or more runs prevented. Thats why its not on the baseball card. Because if it actually did impact those numbers, then it IS reflected in the stats. And to the extent it DIDN'T significantly impact those numbers, then all it is is a nice thing to say about somebody. Delgado was dinged up too.

If you think a powerless, speedless, walkless contact hitter is harder to find and as valuable to a lineup than a guy who averages 40 bombs, 100 runs and 120 rbis a season (with a lifetime OB% close to .400), then you simply aren't watching the same game i am.

[TransMonk]

Vic Sage wrote: If you think a powerless, speedless, walkless contact hitter is harder to find and as valuable to a lineup than a guy who averages 40 bombs, 100 runs and 120 rbis a season (with a lifetime OB% close to .400), then you simply aren't watching the same game i am.

I guess I think a guy near the top of the lineup who extends innings with hits and productive outs creating more run scoring opportunities for the leadoff, #3 and cleanup hitters is as valuable as a power hitter who is as likely to strikeout or hit into a DP as he is to drive in those created run scoring opportunites.

Again, it's apples and bananas. Without either, you are missing part of a winning fruit salad.

As far as watching the same game as you, I thought that was the point of this thread. We can debate the value of players to the team without strictly going by the year end stat totals. Otherwise, we might as well list all of the offensive players by decreasing OPS and call the rankings done and not have to watch the games at all.

Where is Eli Marrero anyways?

[Valadius]

Here's my initial take on this year's rankings.

I'll start by compiling a list of possibilities for the 30:

Hitters:

1. Reyes
2. Wright
3. Delgado
4. Lo Duca
5. Beltran
6. Valentin
7. Chavez
8. Floyd
9. Nady
10. Woodward
11. Milledge
12. Franco
13. Matsui
14. Castro
15. Green
16. A. Hernandez
17. Tucker

Pitchers:

1. Glavine
2. Trachsel
3. Martinez
4. O. Hernandez
5. Maine
6. Heilman
7. Oliver
8. Wagner
9. Bradford
10. Feliciano
11. Sanchez
12. Soler
13. Bannister
14. Bell
15. Perez
16. Williams
17. Zambrano
18. Julio
19. Pelfrey
20. R. Hernandez
21. Mota

So that gives us 38 players for 30 spots. The first player I'm eliminating is Pelfrey, followed by Zambrano, Julio, and Williams. That leaves 34. Next I'll cross off Anderson Hernandez, then Matsui. That's 32. Tucker's the next to go, and Heath Bell is the last to be removed. So that leaves this list:

Hitters:

1. Reyes
2. Wright
3. Delgado
4. Lo Duca
5. Beltran
6. Valentin
7. Chavez
8. Floyd
9. Nady
10. Woodward
11. Milledge
12. Franco
13. Castro
14. Green

Pitchers:

1. Glavine
2. Trachsel
3. Martinez
4. O. Hernandez
5. Maine
6. Heilman
7. Oliver
8. Wagner
9. Bradford
10. Feliciano
11. Sanchez
12. Soler
13. Bannister
14. Perez
15. R. Hernandez
16. Mota

Now I'll grade the hitters against each other and the pitchers against each other:

Hitters:

1. Beltran
2. Reyes
3. Delgado
4. Wright
5. Lo Duca
6. Valentin
7. Chavez
8. Nady
9. Floyd
10. Franco
11. Green
12. Milledge
13. Woodward
14. Castro

Pitchers:

1. Glavine
2. Wagner
3. Martinez
4. Maine
5. O. Hernandez
6. Heilman
7. Oliver
8. Trachsel
9. Bradford
10. Feliciano
11. Sanchez
12. Mota
13. Perez
14. R. Hernandez
15. Bannister
16. Soler

And now to merge the two lists into a point allocation:

30 Beltran
29 Reyes
28 Delgado
27 Wright
26 Glavine
25 Lo Duca
24 Wagner
23 Valentin
22 Martinez
21 Chavez
20 Maine
19 Nady
18 O. Hernandez
17 Heilman
16 Oliver
15 Trachsel
14 Floyd
13 Bradford
12 Feliciano
11 Sanchez
10 Franco
9 Green
8 Mota
7 Perez
6 R. Hernandez
5 Milledge
4 Bannister
3 Woodward
2 Soler
1 Castro

[nymr83]

I guess I think a guy near the top of the lineup who extends innings with hits and productive outs creating more run scoring opportunities for the leadoff, #3 and cleanup hitters is as valuable as a power hitter who is as likely to strikeout or hit into a DP as he is to drive in those created run scoring opportunites.

do you have evidence that he (a) does these things and/or ( that these things help clubs win more than the things delgado does?
he "extends innings with hits"? does that mean he's tougher with 2 outs than with none out? is this a positive? if so how?
a power hitter who is "as likely" to hit into a DP as drive in a run would be pretty valueless indeed, but delgado has more RBI hits than doubleplays by a longshot
sorry top nitpick but i'm trying to figure out what exactly loduca does to make him better than delgado

Again, it's apples and bananas. Without either, you are missing part of a winning fruit salad.

winning isn't a salad that tastes better with multiple fruits. a lineup of 9 delgados would vastly outscore a lineup of 9 loducas

[TransMonk]

Nymr83 wrote: ...a lineup of 9 delgados would vastly outscore a lineup of 9 loducas

I guess I'd like to see the evidence to back that up. Once again, we're back to stratomatic sim games that have nothing to do with flesh-and-blood team baseball.

For the third time, it's fine. I'll concede Delgado should be higher than LoDuca on the 2006 rankings. This is an argument that I've spent enough time on for not caring that much about.

[Frayed Knot]

Getting around to the hurlers ...

Tough year to rate the pitchers, much tougher to order than the hitters; lotsa partial year guys.
And, while 13 different starters may not have set any records, our crew involved 13 guys who made at least 3 starts each. THAT probably hasn't happened too often.

Glavine - Led the team in wins (tied), starts & innings pitched. The only starter who lasted from day 1 thru the playoffs. Top pitcher in Win Shares.

Wagner - I'm convinced now that no one will ever like the closer, but Wagner had a lower ERA, lower WHiP, Higher K/9, plus a lower BAA & SLGA than any of the other relievers all while usually working the money inning(s)

Martinez - Great April, good May, then a slow decline into a big mess. But he was still 3rd on the team in IP with the best peripheral numbers anywhere.

Maine - Part 1 of the booty from the Benson trade out-pitched the more heralded El Duque overall plus had a good post-season

Heilman - One bad stretch in mid-season and a Game 7--9th inning HR can't ruin a good overall season

Sanchez - I think some are giving Duaner short shrift here. Despite not being there for the 2nd half + playoffs, the 1st half games were really more important before the 2nd half cruise control and he was absolutely dominant at time while pitching almost as many innings as some of the full-season types.

O Hernandez - Occasionally erratic, but stabilized the rotation as injuries started to take hold ... then got injured himself

Bradford - So boringly effective that you would find yourself stunned when he didn't come through.

Feliciano - He and Bradford almost have to be listed side-by-side. They just have to.

Trachsel - I wonder how often a team leader in wins gets put this far down the list. Ahhh run support!

Oliver - All purpose lefty compiled a lot of innings while pitching very few important ones

Perez - Exciting & frustrating, often at the same time

Mota - Leaned on heavily in the playoffs for someone who had all of 18 IPs in the regular season

Bannister - Only 8 games/6 starts. Not many hits but lots of baserunners.

Williams - A lot like Perez w/o the playoff boost

R Hernandez - Grabbed at a desperation deal at the deadline, then used only sparingly.

Julio - After Met fans decided they hated him in advance, they almost didn't seem to notice when he strung together a bunch of good games

Pelfrey - The future isn't yet

Bell - Alternated looking good and getting pasted

Soler - 8 starts, a couple of gems but also 4 train-wrecks

Ring - Showed a lot of promise, just in real small doses

Outside looking in: Zambrano, Lima, Gonzalez, Owens, Fortunado, Humber


Now I have to figure how to combine the two halves.

[Frayed Knot]

30 - Beltran
29 - Reyes
28 - Wright
27 - Delgado
26 - Glavine
25 - Wagner
24 - LoDuca
23 - Martinez
22 - Maine
21 - Heilman
20 - Valentin
19 - Sanchez
18 - O Hernandez
17 - Bradford
16 - Feliciano
15 - Chavez
14 - Floyd
13 - Nady
12 - Trachsel
11 - Oliver
10 - Franco
9 - Green
8 - Perez
7 - Mota
6 - Woodward
5 - Milledge
4 - Bannister
3 - Williams
2 - Castro
1 - Tucker