Rose / Shoeless Joe Reinstated

[kcmets]

https://apnews.com/article/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-reinstated-f95afff53006426f3ea44e34d5f56a24?user_email=9f85413e9c4845126c28cbef3b5c0bd50b91b097625b9d6ab4ead0ea8fecb2a7&utm_medium=APNews_Alerts&utm_source=Sailthru_AP&utm_campaign=NewsAlert_May13_2025_04:12PM&utm_term=AP%20News%20Alertshttps://apnews.com/article/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-reinstated-f95afff53006426f3ea44e34d5f56a24?user_email=9f85413e9c4845126c28cbef3b5c0bd50b91b097625b9d6ab4ead0ea8fecb2a7&utm_medium=APNews_Alerts&utm_source=Sailthru_AP&utm_campaign=NewsAlert_May13_2025_04:12PM&utm_term=AP%20News%20Alerts

[Edgy MD]

Yuck.



I would gather that the reinstatement of Shoeless Joe is to make the Rose pill go down easier.



I guess there is hope for Pat Hoberg and Ippei Mizuhara, also.

“In my view, once an individual has passed away, the purposes of Rule 21 have been served. Obviously, a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the integrity of the game. Moreover, it is hard to conceive of a penalty that has more deterrent effect than one that lasts a lifetime with no reprieve. Therefore, I have concluded that permanent ineligibility ends upon the passing of the disciplined individual, and Mr. Rose will be removed from the permanently ineligible list.”

I disagree that a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the game.

[kcmets]

At first I thought it was a gag, but then I got the AP alert

on my phone and they're never wrong sometimes...

[Cowtipper]

I mean, the game allows betting now. Sure it was against the rules then, but you can't act all high and mighty about Jackson and Rose if you're not actively fighting the current betting allowed in MLB.



Long past due for both of them. Reinstate Eddie Cicotte, too, while you're at it.

[Edgy MD]

Maybe I am actively fighting the current betting allowed in MLB.

Reinstate Eddie Cicotte, too, while you're at it.

I guess you didn't read the linked article.

[Cowtipper]

I did a Control-F for Cicotte and didn't get any results, at least.



I'm a millennial, I only read headlines.



Oh I see now.



"all members of the 1919 Chicago Black Sox."

[MFS62]

From stories I've read, Joe may have been more like an innocent bystander than an active participant.

My friend, Shoeless Don the White Sox fan, will be thrilled.

Pete knew what he was doing, and he did it over and over and over. His name should never be spoken in the Hall of Fame, much less enshrined.

Who gets the next set of pardons? The steroid guys?

Feh!

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

Might as well put the January 6 insurrections in the Hall of Fame too. At least, as they eventually die off.

Several others will also have their status changed by the ruling, including all members of the 1919 Chicago Black Sox, former Philadelphia Phillies president Williams D. Cox and former New York Giants outfielder Benny Kauff.

I'm not familiar with Cox or Kauff. I was thinking that maybe Cox was banned for having a plural first name, but that didn't stop Rogers Hornsby.

[Cowtipper]

From stories I've read, Joe may have been more like an innocent bystander than an active participant. My friend, Shoeless Don the White Sox fan, will be thrilled. Pete knew what he was doing, and he did it over and over and over. His name should never be spoken in the Hall of Fame, much less enshrined. Who gets the next set of pardons? The steroid guys? Feh! Later

Why not?



You can't fault people for a condition of the game at the time.



Steroids are the low-hanging fruit that are often blamed for the offensive explosion of the 1990s and early 2000s, but there's a lot more to look at. A juiced ball, smaller ballparks, an increase in batter protection which means they weren't afraid to crowd the plate. I mean, for every guy who supposedly "benefited" from steroids, there were dozens that steroids clearly didn't help at all. The Mitchell Report names are hardly a Who's Who of the game's stars.



People of a certain generation love to overlook all the cheating and chicanery that took place when THEIR heroes were playing. But when THEIR heroes were doing it, they were just being crafty and it "wasn't that bad" and so forth.

[Benjamin Grimm]

=MFS62 post_id=192553 time=1747168662 user_id=60]
Who gets the next set of pardons? The steroid guys?

[Cowtipper]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Might as well put the January 6 insurrections in the Hall of Fame too. At least, as they eventually die off. Several others will also have their status changed by the ruling, including all members of the 1919 Chicago Black Sox, former Philadelphia Phillies president Williams D. Cox and former New York Giants outfielder Benny Kauff. I'm not familiar with Cox or Kauff. I was thinking that maybe Cox was banned for having a plural first name, but that didn't stop Rogers Hornsby.

While Benny played mostly with teams, his brother, Jack, usually played with himself.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Okay, I looked it up. Cox, whose first name was actually William and not Williams, was banned in 1943 for betting on Phillies games. He died in 1989.

[Gwreck]

This is just buck-passing by Manfred, but it's an easy fix. The HOF just needs to change its rule:



Instead of:

“Anyone on the permanently ineligible list is not eligible for election”



Change to:

“Anyone who has been on the permanently ineligible list is not eligible for election”

Edited May 13, 2025 by Guest

[Benjamin Grimm]

And Benny Kauff was an outfielder with the New York Giants. This is from his Wikipedia article:

In December of that year (1919), however, Kauff and his brother were implicated in a car theft. According to the criminal complaint, Kauff and two of his employees, James Shields and James Whalen, sold a car to Ignatz Engel after stealing it and giving it a new paint job. Kauff adamantly denied the charges, claiming he did not know the car was stolen. He claimed that Shields and Whalen had given him what turned out to be a false bill of sale, thus leading him to believe the car had been acquired legally. After only 55 games in 1920, the Giants traded him to Toronto of the International League. Kauff was slated to return to the Giants in 1921, but Baseball Commissioner Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis suspended Kauff until his auto theft case was resolved. The case finally went to trial on May 10, 1921. Kauff argued that he had not only been deceived by his employees, but also presented evidence that showed he had been eating dinner with his wife at the time the car was stolen. The jury acquitted Kauff on May 13 after deliberating for less than an hour. Nonetheless, Landis refused to reinstate him. In a letter to Kauff, Landis said that even though he was acquitted, the trial revealed serious questions about his character and reputation that would raise questions about baseball's integrity if he were ever allowed to play again. He also told baseball writer Fred Lieb that he personally believed Kauff was guilty, and claimed his acquittal "smelled to high heaven" and was "one of the worst miscarriages of justice that ever came under my observation." According to Kauff's attorney, Emil Fuchs (who would go on to own the Boston Braves), another factor in Landis' refusal to reinstate Kauff was that Kauff tried to compensate Engel for the purchase price of the car after finding out it was stolen—something which Kauff had done on Fuchs' advice.. Kauff appealed his banishment in court on the basis of his acquittal, but to no avail.. On January 17, 1922, he lost his appeal to a higher court.. In his ruling, Justice E. G. Whitaker of the New York State Supreme Court did agree that "an apparent injustice has been done the plaintiff [Kauff]," because "at his time there is no contract between him and the defendant.. Even though banned from playing, he served as a baseball scout for 22 years before becoming a clothing salesman for John R. Lyman Co.. He died on November 17, 1961, in Columbus, Ohio

.

[roger_that]

What's wrong with this, logically, is very simple. Before this point, Rose (for example) had to be thinking "I'm not getting in the HoF as long as I'm alive, and also not getting in after that point, either. I guess gambling is a pretty bad mistake."



Any future Roses, though, if tempted to place a bet, get to think, "OK, worst case scenario, I don't get in the HoF while I'm alive, but when I die, I become eligible again like nothing ever happened, so I'll roll the dice, hope I don't caught but if I do, so what?"

[Benjamin Grimm]

I doubt that many people choose to act (or not act) based on their chances for posthumous election to Cooperstown.

[Lefty Specialist]

Well this is bad, but not really unexpected. Shoeless Joe was a bit of an innocent rube, but some of the other Sox were in it up to their eyeballs. They knew exactly what they were doing.



Rose bet on baseball games knowing full well that it was illegal. He says he never bet on his own team, but I would think the temptation (and potential payout) there would be high.



But since every other commercial on baseball games now is a DrafkingsBet365Fanduel, saying that gambling is bad is not as rock-solid as it was a decade ago. Baseball has surrendered to betting; this was just the final thing to tidy up.



That being said, I hope Rose never gets voted in.

[MFS62]

Rose's supporters have included U.S. President Donald Trump, who has said he intends to pardon Rose posthumously. Manfred discussed Rose with Trump when the pair met in April, but he hasn't disclosed specifics of their conversation.

I'm going to mentally add this to the "Things Trump Ruined for me" thread in the non-baseball forum.



Later

[roger_that]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I doubt that many people choose to act (or not act) based on their chances for posthumous election to Cooperstown.

It's a factor, not an absolute. "Permanent ineligibility" was definitely designed as a deterrent. Whether it served that purpose equally for all would-be miscreants is doubtful, as you say, but that design has now flown out of the window.

[ashie62]

All it means is that they are eligible



These guys are mostly long dead. Not a big deal

[Centerfield]

Pete Rose is a pedophile. Preyed on 14 year old girls. Admitted to it in deposition testimony. "I thought she was 16".



Gambling was the least of his sins.



It's crazy that fucking lunatics in this country call everyone they don't like a pedophile. Then they celebrate actual fucking pedophiles. I really can't make sense of this world anymore.



Every time I see Pete Rose's name I feel like I'm living in a simulation. How do decent people not all despise this monster.

[Edgy MD]

You can't fault people for a condition of the game at the time.

Sure I can. I can fault people for whatever I want. But as noted, they have not been banned, and many have not been disciplined at all.



But if you want them enshrined, there is certainly an argument for that, but I don't think "You can't fault people for a condition of the game at the time" is that argument. There is way too much that is assumed and looked past there.



As for pedophilia, it isn't really pedophilia to be into a 14-year-old — thought it is certainly statutory rape. Being into partners in Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development (approximately 11–14) makes him a hebephile. In fact, saying he thought she was 16 makes him a hebophile that is claiming he thought he was only an ephebophile.



I AM SO GLAD I COULD BE IN ASSISTANCE IN SPLITTING THIS IMPORTANT HAIR!



More seriously, Pete Rose is gross, and I think he should be a first-ballot choice for the American Grossness Hall of Fame.



Also, since nobody has written this yet, I will — while I am not saying I see the president's fingerprints all over this, I certainly think it is worthwhile to dust for them.

[MFS62]

Edgy MD wrote: Also, since nobody has written this yet, I will — while I am not saying I see the president's fingerprints all over this, I certainly think it is worthwhile to dust for them.

As I alluded in my post above.

Later

[Batty31]

Pete Rose is a pedophile. Preyed on 14 year old girls. Admitted to it in deposition testimony. "I thought she was 16". Gambling was the least of his sins. It's crazy that fucking lunatics in this country call everyone they don't like a pedophile. Then they celebrate actual fucking pedophiles. I really can't make sense of this world anymore. Every time I see Pete Rose's name I feel like I'm living in a simulation. How do decent people not all despise this monster.

Thank you for mentioning this. I was hoping someone would remember.

[Frayed Knot]

When the 'Ineligible List' was created, essentially for Pete, it was done with the intention of not allowing the BBWAA even the chance to vote on Pete's inclusion in Cooperstown.

This, not surprisingly, upset the BBWAA as they saw themselves as being designated by Cooperstown to be the gate-keepers of the HoF but then being told that they weren't to be trusted as such in the case of Pete Rose. It was an exemption made only for him, but what many in the BBWAA wanted to do was to have Pete reinstated specifically so they could vote against him!

So the bottom line is, that while this makes Pete (and J.J. and others) again eligible for the HoF, it is very far from putting them into the HoF.



Gary mentioned something about how this will not even come up for the next two+ years (Jan '28?). If accurate (and I'm not sure why that will be) it leaves a LOT of time for this problem to be discussed and analyzed. Hopefully, unlike in politics, it'll be a discussion that deals with the merits of the case rather than just superficial nonsense.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: Gary mentioned something about how this will not even come up for the next two+ years (Jan '28?). If accurate (and I'm not sure why that will be) it leaves a LOT of time for this problem to be discussed and analyzed. Hopefully, unlike in politics, it'll be a discussion that deals with the merits of the case rather than just superficial nonsense.

They are no longer the BBWAA's concern, and are being kicked over to the Classic Baseball Era Committee

[bLOCKQUOTE]UPCOMING ERA COMMITTEES ELECTIONS

Contemporary Baseball Era/Player Ballot: December of 2025 for inclusion in the Class of 2026

Contemporary Baseball Era/Managers-Executives-Umpires Ballot: December of 2026 for inclusion in the Class of 2027

Classic Baseball Era: December of 2027 for inclusion in the Class of 2028

CLASSIC BASEBALL ERA (PRIOR TO 1980)

Rules for Election for Managers, Umpires, Executives and Players for Classic Baseball Era Candidates to the National Baseball Hall of Fame

Name: The Classic Baseball Committee ("The Committee") shall refer to the electorate that considers retired Major League Baseball players no longer eligible for election by the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA), along with managers, umpires and executives whose greatest contributions to the game were realized prior to 1980.

Membership: The Classic Baseball Committee shall consist of 16 members, comprised of members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame, executives and veteran media members. The Chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum shall act as the non-voting Chairman of the Committee and the non-voting Secretary of the Committee.

Method of Appointment: The Hall of Fame's Board of Directors shall appoint the Committee.

Term – Each appointee is to serve for a renewable term, with the Committee scheduled to meet on a cycle of once every three years.

Time and Place of Election – Beginning in 2024, an election for Classic Baseball Era candidates shall be held once every three years at the Major League Baseball Winter Meetings. A quorum will consist of three-fourths of the total membership of the Committee. Proxies are permitted in emergency situations only. In the absence of a quorum, a conference call with absent Committee members will be permitted.[/bLOCKQUOTE]

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/election-rules/era-committeeshttps://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/election-rules/era-committees

[batmagadanleadoff]

What's wrong with this, logically, is very simple. Before this point, Rose (for example) had to be thinking "I'm not getting in the HoF as long as I'm alive, and also not getting in after that point, either. I guess gambling is a pretty bad mistake." Any future Roses, though, if tempted to place a bet, get to think, "OK, worst case scenario, I don't get in the HoF while I'm alive, but when I die, I become eligible again like nothing ever happened, so I'll roll the dice, hope I don't caught but if I do, so what?"

Maybe your point is not as simple as you make it out to be because your premise is all wrong. Here's what Rose was thinking:

“I've come to the conclusion – I hope I'm wrong – that I'll make the Hall of Fame after I die,'” Rose said 10 days before his death in an interview with John Condit, a sportscaster in Dayton, Ohio.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6309907/2025/05/13/pete-rose-baseball-ineligible-list/https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6309907/2025/05/13/pete-rose-baseball-ineligible-list/

[batmagadanleadoff]

Lefty Specialist wrote: Well this is bad, but not really unexpected. Shoeless Joe was a bit of an innocent rube, but some of the other Sox were in it up to their eyeballs. They knew exactly what they were doing.

Not only that but Shoeless Joe tore it up in the 1919 Series. He batted .375 (12 for 32) and OPS'd .956 with three doubles and a home run. That doesn't read like a guy in on a fix.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Also, since nobody has written this yet, I will — while I am not saying I see the president's fingerprints all over this, I certainly think it is worthwhile to dust for them.

That's the very first thing I thought of. I also learned a few new words from your post, plus Tanner Scale. Never heard of that, either.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: Gary mentioned something about how this will not even come up for the next two+ years (Jan '28?). If accurate (and I'm not sure why that will be) it leaves a LOT of time for this problem to be discussed and analyzed. Hopefully, unlike in politics, it'll be a discussion that deals with the merits of the case rather than just superficial nonsense.

This is correct. The Committee that will vote on Rose's HOF eligibility votes once every three years. It last voted in 2024 when it inducted Dick Allen and Dave Parker.