Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

[batmagadanleadoff]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: They fired Mickey for a lot of reasons but being bad with the press (occasionally hostile, often awkward) was one of them. Beltran is "good" with the press inasmuch as he can comfortably lie to them. Fuck him and Trump

And then fuck all the people who think that what Beltran did is besides the point but that what does matter is how Beltran is supposed to PIVOT and change the subject and essentially bullshit the public because we're all stupid and have the memory span of a fucking doorknob.

[Ceetar]

and then fuck all the people that think this matters at all to anything and that would rather hear quotes from Beltran about the 2017 Astros than the 2020 Mets.

[RealityChuck]

Wow. And there it is. He's the only player mentioned in the report. Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout.

Now, take the time to read the actual comment:



a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter.



Reading comprehension test:



1. Does this say that Beltran set up the system?

2. Does this say he suggested setting up the system?

3. Does this say he had anything to do with operating it?

4. Did he suggest using a camera?

5. Is setting up a camera the only possible way to "improve on decoding opposing teams' signs"?

6. Does this say that Beltran was the only one who brought this up? Or was is "a group of players"?



Beltran (among others) made a comment; Cora carried it out. Beltran certainly benefited from the system, but so did everyone on the roster.



The only issue here was Beltran's name was mentioned (and he takes second fiddle to "a group of players"). He may have been a catalyst, but the report did not say he was involved in setting up the cheating.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=Ceetar post_id=29764 time=1579110491 user_id=102]
and then fuck all the people that think this matters at all to anything and that would rather hear quotes from Beltran about the 2017 Astros than the 2020 Mets.

[TransMonk]

Wow. And there it is. He's the only player mentioned in the report. Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout. Now, take the time to read the actual comment: a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Reading comprehension test: 1. Does this say that Beltran set up the system? 2. Does this say he suggested setting up the system? 3. Does this say he had anything to do with operating it? 4. Did he suggest using a camera? 5. Is setting up a camera the only possible way to "improve on decoding opposing teams' signs"? 6. Does this say that Beltran was the only one who brought this up? Or was is "a group of players"? Beltran (among others) made a comment; Cora carried it out. Beltran certainly benefited from the system, but so did everyone on the roster. The only issue here was Beltran's name was mentioned (and he takes second fiddle to "a group of players"). He may have been a catalyst, but the report did not say he was involved in setting up the cheating.

All the more reason to hear from Beltran tout de suite.



The longer he and the Mets wait to get his story out there, then the longer the perception that he is one of the lynch pins will be burning in the media/interwebs.

[Centerfield]

So everyone knows that I am a big fan of Beltran so I'm biased here. But my thoughts:



1. If you're not punishing any other players, it makes no sense to punish Beltran simply because he is now a manager. He wasn't a manager then, and therefore, wasn't an authority figure. He's no more culpable than JD Davis.



2. Yes, he was specifically named, and maybe one can infer that he was more heavily involved than other players, but that is a pretty significant assumption to make when dealing with someone's career and reputation. As Chuck noted, the behavior he is cited for is not illegal. I think this is pretty sloppy on the Commissioner's part. If Beltran did something illegal, or more culpable than the other players, then it should be so listed. If he did not, his name shouldn't be included as it gives an implication of wrongdoing.



3. The Mets, like any other employer, can make whatever decision they want. That he wasn't suspended doesn't mean that Mets can't fire him. And just because he was guilty of this as a player doesn't mean he has to be fired. They are their own entity and can hire/fire based on whatever criteria they want.



4. As much as I love Beltran, and as much as I am rooting for him, I don't think he was the right decision as the manager of this team. I don't agree that he is very good with the media. In fact, I'd say he's thin-skinned and sensitive to criticism. I think this will end badly.



5. It was really shitty of him to lie. Sometimes a "no comment" works really well. Not sure how he could think that this would not come out.

[kcmets]

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/back-cover-10.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=390>

[Ceetar]

4. As much as I love Beltran, and as much as I am rooting for him, I don't think he was the right decision as the manager of this team. I don't agree that he is very good with the media. In fact, I'd say he's thin-skinned and sensitive to criticism. I think this will end badly. 5. It was really shitty of him to lie. Sometimes a "no comment" works really well. Not sure how he could think that this would not come out.

4 is irrelevant though. The Mets thought he was (as do I), and shouldn't now fire him because of something random that happened in a previous job that he's not being punished for that has nothing to do with his job title now.



5. I mean, sure, whatever. he lied to the media about something he should've just flat out not commented on, sure, but the no comment is a comment too, so there's no avoiding it anyway. It doesn't avoid having to address it one more time (and that's it, because the Mets and Beltran won't be discussing this even as late as March) so he kept to the company line. whatever. We know he and the Mets aren't going to forthright with the media anyway, especially this bunch, because they haven't been for years and there's no reason to expect it's going to change now.



So whatever. Stick to your plan. People are going to debate the merits of it, and that's fine, but don't change your mind based on January back pages. That's dumb, totally Wilponian too, which certainly isn't mutually exclusive.

[ashie62]

How about this, its over Carlos

[Frayed Knot]

2. Yes, he was specifically named, and maybe one can infer that he was more heavily involved than other players, but that is a pretty significant assumption to make when dealing with someone's career and reputation. As Chuck noted, the behavior he is cited for is not illegal. I think this is pretty sloppy on the Commissioner's part. If Beltran did something illegal, or more culpable than the other players, then it should be so listed. If he did not, his name shouldn't be included as it gives an implication of wrongdoing.

One school of thought is that he was the only player specifically named because he is no longer a player, w/Houston or elsewhere. There may be a few others in that category as well but he stayed in the game and has been 'management' ever since (first Yanquis, now field manager) so maybe that made him a prime target.

MLB stated that it was going after "those in charge" -- Manfred's words from back after the 'Apple Watch' scandal in Boston -- in the event of further electronic hi-jinx, specifically NOT mentioning players. I think at least part of that deals with the difficultly they'd have in going after players, between union protection and the need to prove how much each player did/didn't participate and/or use the ill-gotten info it would be a logistical nightmare to find the biggest villains and have enough proof to make it stick. And you know the players aren't going to rat on each other.

[dgwphotography]

The Astros should be punished by banishing them to the National League, that'll teach 'em.

[nymr83]

=dgwphotography post_id=29821 time=1579186816 user_id=78]
The Astros should be punished by banishing them to the National League, that'll teach 'em.

[Frayed Knot]

“Shit makes sense now ... I remember wondering how these guys were laying off some of my nasty pitches. Relaying all my signs in live speed to the batter. Ruining the integrity of the game.

These dudes were all about the camera and social media. Now, they're all quiet! Lol” -- Marcus Stroman after seeing video from an Aug 6, 2017 game in which he pitched for the Jays against

the Astros and was roughed up for 11 hits over 6-2/3 IP including a 3-for-4 by his would-be manager Carlos Beltran. On the video the now infamous sounds of garbage can banging can be heard.



Well at least that's one awkward spring training meet-and-greet that now won't have to occur.

[Edgy MD]

This appeared in my FB feed this evening:



https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/screen-shot-2020-01-24-at-10.28.50-pm.png>

[MFS62]

Well, that's one way to describe it:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/justin-verlander-laughed-saying-astros-122334554.htmlhttps://www.yahoo.com/sports/justin-verlander-laughed-saying-astros-122334554.html



Later

[nymr83]

an Astros fan went ahead and re-watched available video to log all the trash can banging. his results are here: http://signstealingscandal.com/players/http://signstealingscandal.com/players/



Two immediate takeaways: lots of can-banging for Beltran At-Bats. Almost none for Altuve who is a big outlier - did Altuve say "fuck you" to the cheaters?

[batmagadanleadoff]

an Astros fan went ahead and re-watched available video to log all the trash can banging. his results are here: http://signstealingscandal.com/players/http://signstealingscandal.com/players/ Two immediate takeaways: lots of can-banging for Beltran At-Bats. Almost none for Altuve who is a big outlier - did Altuve say "fuck you" to the cheaters?

Who knows. Some batters just aren't comfortable receiving stolen signals and it's got nothing to do with ethics. They think they hit better without having the signs.

[Edgy MD]

But we also know that the trashy thing wasn't the only way of conveying the read, right?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: But we also know that the trashy thing wasn't the only way of conveying the read, right?

'know'? no.



strongly suspect with lots of allegations from other players? sure.



But like, then they're probably still doing it. Nothing they did in 2019 got flagged, so why not just keep at it?





At least two people have look at that data and concluded that basically anything they gained was more than erased by all the times they failed to bang not because it was a fastball but because they didn't know.

[bmfc1]

Jayson Stark and Eno Sarris in The Athletic looked at the latest information on the Astros and some of it was about our very own Jake Marisnick:

[bLOCKQUOTE]Four of their returning hitters made remarkable improvements in their ability to lay off [breaking balls below the zone] … Jake Marisnick dropped from 30 percent to 13 percent.

...

Why did a guy as talented as Marisnick never become a full-time player in his six seasons in Houston? Swinging and missing had a lot to do with it. His 29.8-percent career strikeout percentage is the eighth-highest of any active player with at least 1,800 plate appearances.

On one hand, that rate spiked to 34.8 percent overall in 2017, and that was Marisnick's highest (at the time) of any season he'd spent as an Astro. On the other hand, what stood out about it was this:

Home: 29.2%

Road: 39.6%

That's a stunning 10.4-percent difference between his home and road strikeout ratios. Among players with at least 250 trips to the plate, he was one of only five players that year whose home strikeout rate was that much lower than his road rate, according to STATS. But that difference ranked first in baseball among hitters whose overall whiff rate was as high as Marisnick's.

According to signstealingscandal.com, the Astros pounded that trash can on 22.8 percent of all the recorded pitches thrown to Marisnick at home that year. And where did that percentage rank on his team? The correct answer is first, well ahead of the runner-up, González, at 18.9.[/bLOCKQUOTE]

Marisnick is going to face some tough questions when he arrives at Port St. Lucie.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Maybe we can trade him for Juan Lagares

[nymr83]

I hope he has a great year but jeez

[Ceetar]

I wonder what residual effect remains? Like, did he learn anything about laying off by knowing that pitch was coming? And he still would've had to identify 'low' out of the hand.



Also is the BB% jump any different than if he's just made a concerted effort to swing at 10% fewer pitches?

[ashie62]

The banging peaked on 8/4/17 against the Blue Jays according to the fan account



Astros were up 15 games Blue Jays way back



Final score 16-7 Astros with a nine run 4th inning for Houston



The two Blue Jays pitchers in the fourth, Ceasr Valdes and Mike Bolsinger got hammered and have not pitched in the majors since



A different kind of "Bang the Drum Softly."

[batmagadanleadoff]

https://nypost.com/2020/02/11/carlos-beltran-was-relentless-godfather-in-astros-sign-stealing-scheme/https://nypost.com/2020/02/11/carlos-beltran-was-relentless-godfather-in-astros-sign-stealing-scheme/



Carlos Beltran was the ringleader of the Astros sign stealing scandal.

[LWFS]

EL ES AQUI

EL ES AQUI

EL ES AQUI

AND YOU CAN REFER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO HIM, OR ANY OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF MY LEGAL TEAM

[Ceetar]

It's a garbage smear job anyway, but that post article is absolute trash. Just pure ignorant unadulterated garbage. You can tell the writer doesn't even understand the situation or key parts of it, and does reiterate the part about how Beltran 'lied' to the Post when he got hired. Which of course, is why he got fired. For not giving them the scoop. just pure trash.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

There's nothing wrong with the Post article. It's just an article.

[Frayed Knot]

It's a garbage smear job anyway, but that post article is absolute trash. Just pure ignorant unadulterated garbage. You can tell the writer doesn't even understand the situation or key parts of it, and does reiterate the part about how Beltran 'lied' to the Post when he got hired. Which of course, is why he got fired. For not giving them the scoop. just pure trash.

This article cites and links a new report from a different source [The Athletic]. It also uses quotes from Beltran contrasting what he said initially vs what he eventually confessed to knowing and doing: -- "I'm not

concerned [about the investigation] ... I was not aware of the camera" vs "As a veteran player on the team I should've recognized the severity of the issue and truly regret the actions that were taken'', and it

contains quotes from teammates saying not just how directly he was involved but how he orchestrated and maintained it often over the objections of others. "He disregarded [advice to put a stop to the system]

and steamrolled everybody ... Where do you go if you're a young, impressionable player and this guy says, ‘We're doing this'?”



Which of those issues turns this article into "pure ignorant unadulterated garbage"?













btw, what team was it that Beltran came from when he arrived in Houston only to immediately inform his new team that their sign-stealing system was "behind the times"?

Hard to remember at this point but it may have been one of those complaining the loudest recently.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Not speaking for Ceets but my guess is he sees a conspiracy whereby Beltran is being set-up as a fall guy. That he was caught in a lie about his culpability--and the report and now these comments support that he was lying--doesn't matter in that case.