Can You Cano?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I like Smith, I think Cano can be useful for at least 2-3 years, and I like the prospect of getting rid of Bruce. Losing Gimenez (who strikes me as a Ruben Tejada-at-his-best guy), Dunn (whose control is
... not ideal), and D-Smith (bleh) hurts from a best-prospects-in-the-system standpoint... but it's not a crazy amount of upside we're losing here.

I'm wary of the salary-flexibility thing, but if they're including guys like these, I think it'd be silly to poo-poo a trade like this. (Especially since a substantial FA addition for a new offensive weapon seems... unlikely, at best.)

Edited November 28, 2018 by Guest

[Mex17]

Here are my questions. .

-After the first two years basically being a financial wash with the money coming from Seattle and Bruce going the other way, are you good with $42 million over three years going to a guy who will be in his age 38, 39, and 40 seasons? Can you move a guy like that to an AL team at that point and take on some of that money (say something in between $12-$22 million)?
-Can Cano transition to third after maybe a year?
-Are you OK taking a pretty significant hit to a not great as it is farm system in order to get two guys (Diaz and Mallex) who are proven performers in the bigs who each have four seasons of team control left? (That's actually an easy one for me at this team's juncture.)
-Would this free up Nimmo as trade bait, perhaps to Cleveland for Yan Gomes? Do you want to do that? Do you move Conforto instead? Or keep both? How would you handle the outfield logjam if you eventually have Conforto/Nimmo/Mallex/healthy Cespedes?
-Can you survive the first 2-3 months of the season assuming Cespedes will miss at least that much time and Alonso will need AAA time? Are you too lefthanded? What if Cespedes does not come back?
-What do you do with McNeil? If the answer is "third base", then what do you do with Frazier? Is McNeil's punch and judy bat/OBP worth losing Frazier's defense at the hot corner?

[Mex17]

Let's assume this trade goes through, Alonso makes the team out of spring training, and they do not trade Nimmo for a catcher. I see some platooning in this scenario at the beginning of the year (pre-Cespedes).

-vs. RHP
Smith-cf
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Alonso-1b
d'Arnaud/Plawecki-c
pitcher
Rosario-ss
McNeil-3b

-vs LHP
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Frazier-3b
Alonso-1b
Lagares-cf
d'Arnaud/Plawecki-c
pitcher
Rosario-ss

Then, when Cespedes comes back, then you trade Nimmo for Gomes?

Or, you just sign Grandal, thereby adding another semi-reliable righthanded bat, and deal with the outfield logjam some other way.

[Zvon]

Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.

Really hope he proves me wrong.

[Benjamin Grimm]

You can't really assume that the Indians, if they're looking to trade Gomes, will be willing to wait for Yoenis Cespedes to come off the DL before making a deal. If Nimmo-for-Gomes is an option now, that doesn't mean it will still be an option next summer.

[Zvon]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: You can't really assume that the Indians, if they're looking to trade Gomes, will be willing to wait for Yoenis Cespedes to come off the DL before making a deal. If Nimmo-for-Gomes is an option now, that doesn't mean it will still be an option next summer.

I feel somewhat pacified.

[Mex17]

Zvon wrote: Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.

What about a Conforto/Cespedes platoon at LF?

LF-Conforto/Cespedes
CF-Smith/Lagares
RF-Nimmo

This is starting to look like the '69 team.

[Frayed Knot]

You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

[Guest 41Forever]

A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint?

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

OK, who do you want riding the bench full time on a team that has Conforto, Cespedes, Mallex, and Nimmo?

Not wanting to do this deal at all because of the outfield logjam it would create is a perfectly acceptable answer as well.

Also, are you that confident that Cespedes can be even play full time going forward once he gets back?

Would you keep a healthy Cespedes on the bench in favor of Conforto against a tough lefty just to avoid a platoon?

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

And yet, that's still more appealing than giving 2/3 of the centerfield starts to Dominic Smith.

Oh, Mallex. Never mind.

[Frayed Knot]

Well, the problem at the root of all this is not having a true CF'er. That's a problem that needs to be solved by I don't solve it by making the two best hitters on the team into part-time players.

So I certainly don't add Mallex Smith with the intention of making him a full-time player if the net result is going to be that each one of his ABs takes one away from either Conforto and/or (second-half)
Cespedes. That's a downgrade rather than a solution even if it turns out that Smith one good (semi-full time 2018) season really does show who he's going to be from here on out.
Plus I'm not even sure how good a defensive CF he is. We tend to make assumptions that slappy/speedy guys make good CF gloves but that's not always the case and Smith has always split his time between
CF and a corner spot. Maybe that was due to other personnel on the teams he was on, or maybe it's because he's merely OK there which, if so, isn't really an upgrade from what Nimmo & Conforto can do.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Smith, by most measures, is an average/above-average CF glove. But he doesn't have to be better than Nimmo to be an improvement, even-- he and Nimmo just have to be better than Nimmo/Bruce, right?

41Forever wrote: A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint?

2.9 fWAR in 80 games last year. 18 or so fWAR over the last four years, with no discernible downward trend. SSS alert, but .317/.363/.497 in 41 G post-suspension. AND he still plays a good second. He's been better in "aged" down years than Bruce has been at his best. MFY taint stinks. But he's kindasorta future HOF-y. If Bruce and Ces ARE off the books, having Cano on won't cripple the team's financial flexibility. (It shouldn't, anyway.)

Also, you're trading a couple of toolsy prospects, maybe, for developed, very good major leaguers that fill two persistent roster holes on the cheap. If you're not going to sign a Machado or Donaldson, this is how you upgrade a lineup while retooling.

Y'know? Forget devil's advocacy. I'm on board with this for real, I think.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Guest

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Also, proposed: if Cano DOES have something left for 2-3 years, the MFY "taint" can be a borderline asset. Can you imagine a playoff contender led by a resurgent Cano, right in the MFYs' regressing faces? Sterling having to call Cano 2-HR games during Subway Series? It'd be like Darryl in reverse.

[Edgy MD]

Just saying the name Mallex Smith improves my virility by about 34%.

So there's that.

[Guest 41Forever]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Smith, by most measures, is an average/above-average CF glove. But he doesn't have to be better than Nimmo to be an improvement, even-- he and Nimmo just have to be better than Nimmo/Bruce, right? 41Forever wrote: A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint? 2.9 fWAR in 80 games last year. 18 or so fWAR over the last four years, with moo discernible downward trend. SSS alert, but .317/.363/.497 in 41 G post-suspension. AND he still plays a good second. He's been better in "aged" down years than Bruce has been at his best. MFY taint stinks. But he's kindasorta future HOF-y. If Bruce and Ces ARE off the books, having Cano on won't cripple the team's financial flexibility. (It shouldn't, anyway.) Also, you're trading a couple of toolsy prospects, maybe, for developed, very good major leaguers that fill two persistent roster holes on the cheap. If you're not going to sign a Machado or Donaldson, this is how you upgrade a lineup while retooling. Y'know? Forget devil's advocacy. I'm on board with this for real, I think.

I just have Alomar/Baerga flashbacks.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Carlos Baerga was only 28 when the Mets got him. That's not at all comparable to Cano. Roberto Alomar was 34, which is a lot closer.

[seawolf17]

I'm trying to talk myself into this, because I feel like it's the kind of thing that might legitimately happen.

[batmagadanleadoff]

MFY taint? What the fuck is that? Is that the latest excuse for the Wilpons to cover that they'd be too cheap to ever go in on Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig or Mickey Mantle if those players were playing today and hitting free agency?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Any notion of "MFY taint" is coming from the fans, not the Wilpons.

We came to love Curtis Granderson, even though he has a Yankee past. We'd get over it with anyone else too, if they performed well.

[Zvon]

Mex17 wrote: Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again. What about a Conforto/Cespedes platoon at LF? LF-Conforto/Cespedes CF-Smith/Lagares RF-Nimmo This is starting to look like the '69 team.

You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

I agree with FK, especially in regards to Conforto.

I kinda like:
LF: Conforto
CF: Nimmo
RF: Yo @90 to 100%

[bmfc1]

FYI: the thread title was a callback to this very old commercial

but there's also this song:

[Frayed Knot]

I remember the commercial, not the song.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Any notion of "MFY taint" is coming from the fans, not the Wilpons....

Oh, that much I knew.

[Centerfield]

After consideration again last night, I decided I'm against this deal.

When it comes down to it, I don't have much faith that Cano will continue to be productive. I keep reading that he's still a good hitter, etc. Well, he was a good hitter in 2018. We don't know what he will be in 2019, except that we know he's already 36, and he'll either be off the 'roids, or suspended. I don't think that this bodes well for him next year, and certainly not in the ensuing years. It kinda reminds me of the Bobby Bonilla or Mo Vaughn situation, where we unload a bad contract by taking on a worse one, partially because we feel like the player still has something left. I don't want to rely on this.

Diaz is certainly intriguing, but if they ask for prospects in addition to taking on Cano, then I tell them to forget it.

More than anything else, I feel like if BVW makes this trade, he will feel justified that he's upgraded the offense, and not do anything else. That's not the move I'm looking for.

Get me a power bat in his prime. Not an expensive 36 year old on his downside.

[Centerfield]

For perspective, some thought taking a flyer on 32 year old Josh Donaldson on a 1 year deal was too much risk.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Yeah, I'm pretty solidly against the idea of this proposed trade. I think the M's willingness to include Diaz shows how desperate they are to get out from underneath Cano and also how eminently replaceable a high-strikeout, hard-throwing, right-handed closer can be in 2018, talented as he may be. And Mallex Smith sounds to me like he's maybe prime Dee Gordon with less steals. No thanks, man. Main point is that I have little faith that post-PED, 36-year old Cano will continue to be highly productive this year, let alone for 5.

[Edgy MD]

Van Wagenen's Wikipedia page says that he negotiated that 10-year Cano contract. I thought that was Jay-Z's agency. Did Brodie used to work for them?

If he indeed negotiated it, it'd seemingly be a case of him buying his own bullshit to take over the back end of that deal after his client has been exposed as a PED cheat.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

And Mallex Smith sounds to me like he's maybe prime Dee Gordon with less steals.

Mallex has a career . 346 OBP and .384 SLG, and both numbers are trending upward. Gordon has only topped either number twice in his career. On this matter, your hearing is flawed.

Also, re: PED weirdness... you have more to fear from aging. Braun, Marte, Cruz-- most good PED-suspended hitters have remained good hitters, post-PED suspension.

Cano. As OUR 90s-Yankees Darryl. IMAGINE THE FLOSSIBILITIES

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: Well, the problem at the root of all this is not having a true CF'er. That's a problem that needs to be solved by I don't solve it by making the two best hitters on the team into part-time players. So I certainly don't add Mallex Smith with the intention of making him a full-time player if the net result is going to be that each one of his ABs takes one away from either Conforto and/or (second-half) Cespedes. That's a downgrade rather than a solution even if it turns out that Smith one good (semi-full time 2018) season really does show who he's going to be from here on out. Plus I'm not even sure how good a defensive CF he is. We tend to make assumptions that slappy/speedy guys make good CF gloves but that's not always the case and Smith has always split his time between CF and a corner spot. Maybe that was due to other personnel on the teams he was on, or maybe it's because he's merely OK there which, if so, isn't really an upgrade from what Nimmo & Conforto can do.

Try this out for size.

Assuming the O'Dowd version of the trade goes though, a healthy Cespedes, a promoted Alonso, and a Grandal signing. . .

-vs. RHP
Smith-cf
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Grandal-c
Alonso-1b
pitcher
McNeil-3b
Rosario-ss

-vs. LHP
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-cf
Cespedes-lf
Cano-2b
Frazier-3b
Grandal-c
Alonso-1b
pitcher
Rosario-ss

With this, you keep Conforto and Nimmo in the lineup everyday. You also keep Cespedes from being overused coming off injury and place him in the best position to succeed. And you get a healthy dose of what Mallex Smith can bring to the table.

You also limit McNeil's exposure and keep Frazier involved.

It's almost like two different teams in one. You get more of a situational/speed/smallball team against rightys and more pop against leftys.