Sandy Extendo

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: The Astros committed to a rebuild and built a 100 win team. The Mets never committed to rebuilding and built a 90 win team.

The Marlins committed to rebuilding, repeatedly, and haven't made the playoffs in 15 years.

The Astros have what's practically a historical offense. No. not practically. If you sort team seasons by OPS+ on Baseball Reference, they are literally first.

That's way out to the right of the rebuilding standard deviation curve. Some of it's good drafting and development, but a lot of it's luck and timing.

[stevejrogers]

I’d take a 5 year run of division champion 95-100 win seasons of domination, even with a Wild Card in the mix, despite zero rings over having to scrape and claw late just for the chance to make the postseason as an 85-93 win team every few roster turnover cycles.

OE: Yes I’m now aware that their NL Champion 2017 season was the Dodgers’ first over 95 win season since the McCourt era broke bad.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm not at all convinced that the only road to winning 100 games is to first allow yourself to lose 100 games.

The Arizona Diamondbacks went, literally, from not existing in 1997 to 102 wins in 1999.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't think the org can take three consecutive 100-loss seasons and of course there's no guarantee they do everything right if they orchestrate it. A 90-loss campaign when they lost nearly every starting pitcher and their 3 and 4 hitters to injury and the fans are dying to be offended. The 2015 season was one of the best and most satisfying the team ever had and a bunch of dipshits spent spring training raising money to buy a billboard bragging about how tortured they were.

We're all in agreement that Wilpons are fools who think they're geniuses.

[Centerfield]

Centerfield wrote: Sorry. Should have been more clear. Sandy's a much better overall GM. But I wouldn't mind having Omar involved some way in scouting. Or really, anyone with more of a baseball background? Again, not sure that is Sandy's strong suit. I don't think he's done a good job with the farm system. Maybe the Wilpons aren't investing enough in some ways? Not sure.

Wow. How crazy is this. Maybe Fred reads the board.

Hi Fred!

[Theoldmole]

I’m glad to see Omar back. I think he’s a good baseball man, and a good talent evaluator.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Yeah, I think the fact that he has gotten hired again and again indicates he's got real ability in baseball. I do hope he's not a heartbeat from the presidency, so to speak, bceause that job wasn't good for him: Too little big-picture viewership, destroyed by other teams in trades, not a proven dollars-and-years evaluator, apparently pushed around by underlings, awkward and at times insanely inappropriate understanding of the role of the press and how to interact with them.

[Benjamin Grimm]

My impression is that John Ricco is the guy in the heartbeat seat.

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: My impression is that John Ricco is the guy in the heartbeat seat.

My impression is that Ricco is the source of any "against the wishes of the front office" rumors

[Centerfield]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The 2015 season was one of the best and most satisfying the team ever had and a bunch of dipshits spent spring training raising money to buy a billboard bragging about how tortured they were.

Those fans were right. The first half of 2015 was miserable and the team was going nowhere. The fans said the addition of Michael Cuddyer wasn’t enough. They were right.

Remember how “fun” it was batting Mayberry and Campbell in the middle of our lineup.

It wasn’t until the team went and got Cespedes, the legitimate hitter they needed, that the team turned it around. Then they went on one of the most amazing runs we have ever seen. And finished with 90 wins.

[Lefty Specialist]

Really. Coming into July 31st, they were 52-50 and had just lost 8-7 to the Padres in the rain in excruciating fashion. Met fans were ready to revolt at that point. Only the next 60 games and the postseason were fun.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Centerfield wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The 2015 season was one of the best and most satisfying the team ever had and a bunch of dipshits spent spring training raising money to buy a billboard bragging about how tortured they were. Those fans were right. The first half of 2015 was miserable and the team was going nowhere. The fans said the addition of Michael Cuddyer wasn’t enough. They were right. Remember how “fun” it was batting Mayberry and Campbell in the middle of our lineup. It wasn’t until the team went and got Cespedes, the legitimate hitter they needed, that the team turned it around. Then they went on one of the most amazing runs we have ever seen. And finished with 90 wins.

No, they were dipshits. They did it while the team was fashioning its best spring training in years and it sat up there overlooking the stadium while the team won in 11 in a row that April, including an 8-0 homestand. It ought to have been clear even then that was what the team was at least capable of. And just like a good team would they adjusted in-season when things went bad (Cuddyer, Wright, dArnaud) through promotions and trades.

I can't believe you guys are of the mind that 2015 was some kind of disappointment worthy of fan revolt. The season is long and hard.

[Guest 41Forever]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The 2015 season was one of the best and most satisfying the team ever had and a bunch of dipshits spent spring training raising money to buy a billboard bragging about how tortured they were. Those fans were right. The first half of 2015 was miserable and the team was going nowhere. The fans said the addition of Michael Cuddyer wasn’t enough. They were right. Remember how “fun” it was batting Mayberry and Campbell in the middle of our lineup. It wasn’t until the team went and got Cespedes, the legitimate hitter they needed, that the team turned it around. Then they went on one of the most amazing runs we have ever seen. And finished with 90 wins. No, they were dipshits. They did it while the team was fashioning its best spring training in years and it sat up there overlooking the stadium while the team won in 11 in a row that April, including an 8-0 homestand. It ought to have been clear even then that was what the team was at least capable of. And just like a good team would they adjusted in-season when things went bad (Cuddyer, Wright, dArnaud) through promotions and trades. I can't believe you guys are of the mind that 2015 was some kind of disappointment worthy of fan revolt. The season is long and hard.

Luckily, I know of an excellent book that will help anyone relive that magical season!



Sometimes I think we get so focused on the stuff that is bad that we forget or easily dismiss the things that went well or are going well.

The Wilpons have their issues -- some pretty big ones -- but they are far from the worst owners in baseball and not worthy of a revolt. I still think they need G-FAFIF installed as vice president for fan experience and tradition. But the team has been to the postseason two of the last three years, and the last year was considered by all to be a legitimate contender until everyone but Mr. Met was on the disabled list or traded. I'll take that.

[Centerfield]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2015 was the tale of two seasons. One where they didn't do enough, and one where they did.

In 2015 the Mets had the 4th ranked pitching staff in baseball. They were awesome. Post-season caliber, and they were young and under team control.

If the team had secured better offense, they would have been a playoff contender. They failed that winter to do so, adding only Michael Cuddyer. Many of us said it wasn't enough before it happened. We were right.

Spring training games? Are you really citing to that as evidence of greatness? And sure, the 11 game winning streak was nice, but I don't need to tell you about the dangers of small sample size. The far better indicator of that team's ability was the 52-50 record and their 28th ranked offense in the first half.

Then they went out and added the slugger we had been clamoring for. And sure, there were a lot of other factors that worked out as well, but without Yoenis Cespedes that team doesn't come close to being what they were. Post all-star, they had the #3 ranked offense, to go along with all that pitching. And they went to the World Series.

The reason I mention the 90 games is that we were incredibly lucky that year. If the Nats had their typical 95 win season, we still lose that division and are left with a 1 game play in. It's dangerous to tread water for 102 games, then hope to catch fire for the last 60. A good team puts itself in a position to start winning from Opening Day.

And again, if a 90 win season is the pinnacle of our greatness, I would say we are not aiming high enough.

[Centerfield]

41Forever wrote: The Wilpons have their issues -- some pretty big ones -- but they are far from the worst owners in baseball and not worthy of a revolt.

I'm willing to listen on this one. I don't really know a lot about other owners. Who is worse?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I think [the Mets did an Astros style tear-down] in their own fashion, and the Mets beat the Astros to the World Series by two years.

If by they did it, you mean they didn't. Because when you're three or four years away from contention, the very last kind of player you sign up is an over the hill 30 year old in decline who's nevertheless gonna command a very high salary given his past MVP caliber level of play and solid citizen status. Like David Wright.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: 41Forever wrote: The Wilpons have their issues -- some pretty big ones -- but they are far from the worst owners in baseball and not worthy of a revolt. I'm willing to listen on this one. I don't really know a lot about other owners. Who is worse?

I'm not willing to listen. This is more of the same hooey gooey cotton candy up with people nonsense you always get here. Whether the Wilpons are or aren't the worst owners is a meaningless and pointless standard by which to judge them. You're gonna tell me that it'd be a huge consolation if there were worse MLB owners out there? And besides, the Wilpons might in fact be baseball's worst owners when you consider what they have to work with, and the gargantuan competitive advantages they have from owning a team from NYC.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

Nymr83 wrote: NY fans would not accept the path the Astros took to win that WS. the Wilpons would never be allowed to bottom out like that.

"would never be allowed?" Who wouldn't allow them? You? The Wilpons are supposed to be scared of you?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Centerfield wrote: Spring training games? Are you really citing to that as evidence of greatness? And sure, the 11 game winning streak was nice, but I don't need to tell you about the dangers of small sample size. The far better indicator of that team's ability was the 52-50 record and their 28th ranked offense in the first half.

I am citing spring training as the point at which idiots were asking for their mom's credit cards so as to donate to an embarrassing monument to self-pity. And yes I felt that Spring Training/April was meaningful that year in that it demonstrated what the club was capable of. No doubt they surely tested the limits but any 11-game win streak ought to be a sign that a team is good enough to contend. Every team adjusts.

You keep going back to this "if the Nationals won 95 games..." I can think of 11 reasons they didn't.

[Guest d'Kong76]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: This is more of the same hooey gooey cotton candy up with people nonsense you always get here.

If one can take a moment to see above their hate for a few posters here and
leave their forum prejudices at the door, there's really very little hooey gooey
cotton candy nonsense regularly posted here. Certain not always? C'mon.

[batmagadanleadoff]

d'Kong76 wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: This is more of the same hooey gooey cotton candy up with people nonsense you always get here. If one can take a moment to see above their hate for a few posters here and leave their forum prejudices at the door, there's really very little hooey gooey cotton candy nonsense regularly posted here. Certain not always? C'mon.

You spent eight years mocking me. Mocking me as if I was some Larry "Bud" Melman chump too oblivious to even realize you were mocking me. Eight years. Even though I never did anything to you other than, after a while, to retaliate. Then after eight years, you finally figured out how to attack my posts, colorably at least, on the merits, so that it would appear that you didn't have some crazy personal obsession with me and that you simply had a difference of opinion. With every single thing I ever wrote.

[Guest d'Kong76]

You're funny. I stand by my comment ... no hooey gooey nonsense always bbbyyy.

[MFS62]

Take it to the Red Light Forum, guys.
That's what its for.
This is the baseball forum and this thread is for discussing Sandly Alderson's contract extension.
This place isn't personal, its business.
Later

[Centerfield]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Spring training games? Are you really citing to that as evidence of greatness? And sure, the 11 game winning streak was nice, but I don't need to tell you about the dangers of small sample size. The far better indicator of that team's ability was the 52-50 record and their 28th ranked offense in the first half. I am citing spring training as the point at which idiots were asking for their mom's credit cards so as to donate to an embarrassing monument to self-pity. And yes I felt that Spring Training/April was meaningful that year in that it demonstrated what the club was capable of. No doubt they surely tested the limits but any 11-game win streak ought to be a sign that a team is good enough to contend. Every team adjusts. You keep going back to this "if the Nationals won 95 games..." I can think of 11 reasons they didn't.

The Mets were 4-6 against Washington before the deadline. 7-2 against them afterwards. The two losses came on the last weekend of the season after the division was clinched. Cespedes against Washington: 1.046 OPS.

We were very lucky that: (1) Washington was in striking distance when we went on our run; (2) the guy we got destroyed them during head-to-head games; (3) that Washington went 23-30 overall during July and August that year.

[Guest d'Kong76]

MFS62 wrote: Take it to the Red Light Forum, guys. That's what its for.

Fuck that, I said nothing wrong.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Now you want to censor me from defending (or at least trying to) the integrity
of what gets posted here? Hooey gooey nonsense does not ALWAYS get posted
here. RED LIGHT THAT, MFS.

Sooner

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Centerfield wrote: Centerfield wrote: Spring training games? Are you really citing to that as evidence of greatness? And sure, the 11 game winning streak was nice, but I don't need to tell you about the dangers of small sample size. The far better indicator of that team's ability was the 52-50 record and their 28th ranked offense in the first half. I am citing spring training as the point at which idiots were asking for their mom's credit cards so as to donate to an embarrassing monument to self-pity. And yes I felt that Spring Training/April was meaningful that year in that it demonstrated what the club was capable of. No doubt they surely tested the limits but any 11-game win streak ought to be a sign that a team is good enough to contend. Every team adjusts. You keep going back to this "if the Nationals won 95 games..." I can think of 11 reasons they didn't. The Mets were 4-6 against Washington before the deadline. 7-2 against them afterwards. The two losses came on the last weekend of the season after the division was clinched. Cespedes against Washington: 1.046 OPS. We were very lucky that: (1) Washington was in striking distance when we went on our run; (2) the guy we got destroyed them during head-to-head games; (3) that Washington went 23-30 overall during July and August that year.

The 2017 Astros were similarly lucky in that their plane wasn't blown up by terrorists between Games 5 and 6 of the World Series.

[MFS62]

d'Kong76 wrote: Now you want to censor me from defending (or at least trying to) the integrity of what gets posted here? Hooey gooey nonsense does not ALWAYS get posted here. RED LIGHT THAT, MFS. Sooner

Kase,
I was commenting on how these spats, generally between 41 and batmags, get in the way of the discussion. You were in the right, and I was supporting what you said. Sorry if you got hit in the cross fire or took it that I was attacking you.
We are in violent agreement.
Later

[Centerfield]

I think I'm getting lost in the back and forth on this argument.

My points are fairly straightforward.

1. 2015 was a tale of two teams. First half team, then second half team.
2. The first half team was not good enough. 52-50, 28th ranked offense.
3. After they went out and got the slugger we wanted, the second half team was awesome. 38-22, 3rd ranked offense.
4. A 90 game winner is lucky to win a division. 90 wins would have won zero divisions in 2017.

[Guest 41Forever]

MFS62 wrote: Now you want to censor me from defending (or at least trying to) the integrity of what gets posted here? Hooey gooey nonsense does not ALWAYS get posted here. RED LIGHT THAT, MFS. Sooner Kase, I was commenting on how these spats, generally between 41 and batmags, get in the way of the discussion. You were in the right, and I was supporting what you said. Sorry if you got hit in the cross fire or took it that I was attacking you. We are in violent agreement. Later

As am I. I also think that a spat implies two parties are involved, and that's not the case.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Guest