Centerfield

No idea. Al Weis?

I'm surprised to see so many of you putting Beltran so high. Of all of them, I've heard the least about any progress made by the Mole host.

Delgado Reyes Maine Wagner Beltran Putz

I will be really pissed off if he's good for them.

Jesus, don't stop posting because of me. I don't want that on my head. Sorry for being a prick. Nothing personal intended.

You made the distinction in your earlier post that you took offense to my characterizing persons as "idiots", rather than positions. In response, I made it a point to criticize your arguments, and not you. Nonetheless, you took it personally. Why point out a distinction if you intend to ignore in anyway? Let me be clear, I don't think you're an idiot. Or Edgy or anyone else. I said if anyone expects Franceour to improve they are an idiot. Expectations must be supported by some rationale. Nothing I have seen, or been offered in this thread, gives me any reason to expect improvement. As I said before, his declining numbers would suggest just the opposite. I don't believe any of you really expect improvement.

To further clarify... I think Fernando Martinez will one day be a star. I do not expect this, and that is why I would not give him a big money, multi-year contract. When Mark Texiera was on the market last year, I expected him to continue to perform as he has, which is why I was willing to give him a big money, multi-year contract. I think Jeff Franceour might improve. Which is why I would have been willing to give him a shot in a low-risk, high-reward-type move. But I do not expect him to improve. Which is why I would not have given up a superior player to obtain him.

Yeah! CF is right! (double post converted to read as support for above position to the non-observant reader)

Franceour sucks. We shouldn't trade for guys who suck.

1999 was full of cool wins like that. It was like the opposite of these past few years.

Baseball affects my quality of life.

Without looking, tell me the last time the Mets had a lead in a game.

My three-year old (four at the end of August) son has t-shirts for Santana and Wright. He has a Johan bobble-head. He had a Pedro jersey and 2 Beltran jerseys. But this year, he randomly picked Gary Sheffield as his favorite player. He still doesn't pay much attention to the games when they're on TV, but every once in a while, he'll look at the TV, see Sheffield batting and chant "Let's go Sheffield!" And Gary gets a hit (if not a HR) each time. And although he loves going to CitiField, you wouldn't know it by watching him play. When he's pretending to be a construction worker while playing outside, he always says he's doing the same thing. Tearing down Citifield and building a new Shea Stadium.

We're never going to win another game. Ever.

="dgwphotography":1ldnbplq]This reminds me of July of 1973, when people were looking to fire someone from an injury-riddled team. Just sayin'[/quote:1ldnbplq] You hear that Jerry? Hold back Johan for Game 7. Only a fool would trot him out there on 3 days rest for Game 6. Dumbass. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 07 2009 10:36 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2009 12:47 AM It's not moves or lack of moves but the general mindset-- when roster building, you try and address potential problems preemptively, not post hoc. From 2006-07 (replace brittle, offensive-inclined LF with same and trade live arms for marginal SP candidates; ignore actual pitching upgrades, potential holes at 2B, other corner OF) to 2007-08 (get Santana; ignore brittle LF/depth issues/bullpen holes) to 2008-09 (fix bullpen/fill SP holes with plethora of "#5s"; assuming return to form by Castillo, ignores 2B and corner OF offensive deficiencies), Minaya seems caught in a loop wherein he spends each offseason addressing the biggest problems of last year, while apparently neglecting to consider potential problem areas that have existed since 2005-2006 (insufficient offensive depth to weather injuries to 1-2 members of the "core," e.g.). Whether this rearview-mirror approach to problem-solving is a function of his own thinking or how he relates to his employers is almost immaterial at this point; after three years, it's clear that's how he does business as the nominal head of baseball operations. As the head of the Mets, he's got resources with which to work-- money-wise, it's the second- or third-largest purse in the majors. With a little more foresight, this team could be nigh-unstoppable; instead, it's crumbling to pieces, in the prime years of its ultravaluable core. With his gifts for relationship-building, trade negotiations and player relations, he seems to make a fantastic assistant GM; it's become increasingly clear that he seems to lack the organizational "vision thing" required to be a superlative GM and run a consistently improving organization. OlerudOwned Jul 07 2009 11:15 PM He gave Luis Castillo a 4 year extension, which says a lot about his foresight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 12:50 AM Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html metirish Jul 13 2009 09:07 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":395f8x5x]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:395f8x5x] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 09:40 AM ="metirish":1bzocfjg]="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":1bzocfjg]Yeesh, this is depressing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2009/07/11/2009-07-11_meet_the_mess.html[/quote:1bzocfjg] Some interesting reading , mostly all old ground but nice to have it all in one article. Mets insiders whoever they are portraying Reyes as soft is a new one to me . The Players Association looking into how the Mets treat injured players is new to me too.[/quote:1bzocfjg] Considering that he spends the previous 16 column inches trashing the judgement of virtually all "Mets insiders" in decision-making roles, I think Rubin's pretty clearly making an implicit argument there. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:31 AM ]What Minaya almost undoubtedly seems to have done-- if you don't take the cynical view that this was a trade-for-trade's-sake situation-- is that he's made a scout's-mindset trade. One could also argue that some of his worst acquisitions-- Perez, e.g.-- seem to occur when he lets this mindset predominate. Sorry about quoting myself, but I posted this in the "Church-Francoeur" semantics debate, and it kinda got lost in the shuffle. I've seen this echoed in a few places this morning-- that Rubin piece from yesterday being one-- and wondered what the heads here thought. I also wonder whether Minaya's made a basic mistake of a first-time or otherwise inexperienced manager-- surrounding himself with folk with whom he has history/who are "on board" with what he's doing, rather than folk whose skills and talents complement his own (i.e., stat analysis folk who can offer counterpoint when discussing player evaluations). Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:41 AM Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez-Hernandez-for-Nady trade is probably on the negative side of the ledger, but I don't think it's close to the worst. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 11:43 AM I don't get the impression it's all very complicated with Omar. He swapped one flawed asset for another and perhaps in his estimation, a RH-hitting flawed guy was better than LH hitting flawed guy. I think he also believes in the value of new scenery. As has been remarked elsewhere, Church and Francoeur both could be nontendered this offseason, so what;s so bad about a 3-month gamble. Finally I think when in doubt Omar errs toward "talent" -- "show me talent and I'll show you on-base percentage" as he says. And he certainly believes Francoeur has "talent." Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 11:49 AM ="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 11:50 AM Edgy DC likes this. metirish Jul 13 2009 11:51 AM " something needed to be done" is what I have been hearing and reading in various forms since the trade. I may even have uttered it myself. Ron Darling has said it three times that I heard , as have a few other talking heads on SNY. I think Cohen took that view too. Not a way I want the team I support to be run but at least he didn't wake up and trade away a Grade A prospect for a middle of the road talent. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 11:59 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]="Edgy DC"]Oliver Perez was one of his worst acquisitions? Perez' reacquisition hasn't looked at all good so far, but that original trade with the Pirates wasn't too bad. Should've been clearer-- the Perez trade was a decent move (in conception, at least) to fill both an immediate need and a looming one. The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) And I think the exact wrong time to make a move is when "we have to make a move." Desperation is a stinky cologne. Frayed Knot Jul 13 2009 02:08 PM ]The Perez signing was... well, "reprehensible" is a bit strong, but "detestable" might fit the bill. (Personally, I was a Lowe-and-Sheets guy, then Lowe-and pay-Sheets-a-mil-to-rehab guy, then I-guess-we've-got-him-so-go-Ollie guy.) In fairness to the Ollie signing -- which certainly looks like shit at the moment seeing as how he's missed over half of this half-season -- I'd take what he gave us for the last two complete seasons: 63 starts; 371 IP; 320 Hits; 354 Ks; ~3.90 ERA; ~1.35 WHiP and had no problem thinking that he could more or less continue along those lines for 3 more at his age. You wanna haggle about the price go ahead but I'm not sure he could have been had for much less. As for Lowe he's certainly doing OK in 2009 (although a higher ERA & WHiP than the Ollie stats above) but neither he nor Ollie was going to be a one-year commitment (in which case I would have preferred Lowe too) and are we really going to now get on Omar's case for NOT signing a 36 y/o pitcher to a long-term contract? I think I've brought this up before but Lowe was older, more expensive, a longer commitment, and not as good a track record as compared to Glavine at the time of his NYM signing. Yet we all seem to know now that TG was a mistake all along while DL was the way to go. Sheets, meanwhile, isn't pitching because he physically can't pitch and it seems uncertain as to when he'll ever pitch again. Maybe he's great next year but Sheets has had a lot of maybes in his career and too many maybes haven't worked out in Queens lately. And, of course, signing none of the above would have just pushed the Livan/Niese/Nieve/Redding alternatives to the 5th, 4th, 3rd slot that much quicker and for that much longer. Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2009 02:19 PM Not that it matters now, but I was hoping at the time that Randy Wolf would get some consideration. He would have been cheaper than Perez and better than Redding. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 13 2009 02:29 PM Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks. G-Fafif Jul 13 2009 02:37 PM If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win. Edgy DC Jul 13 2009 02:59 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 14 2009 12:47 PM Derek Lowe's up by 5 o'clock Derek Lowe's givin' it all he got Derek Lowe's job is six to nine but Derek Lowe's home by nine O five Derek Lowe helps to cook the steak Derek Lowe helps to wash the plates Derek Lowe puts the kids to bed Derek Lowe reads a book to them (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves Atlanta so Derek Lowe loves to wind and throw Derek Lowe's pitch has great command But Derek Lowe don't make no demands Derek Lowe's always back in time Derek Lowe's not the injured kind Derek Lowe's full of compliment Derek Lowe's such a gentleman (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Cause I'm free Free of any control pitcher qualities Thank God I'm free Cos it's hard enough for me To take care of me, oh-oh Derek Lowe's carryin' a heavy load but Derek Lowe never really ever moans Derek Lowe's such a healthy guy But Derek Lowe let's the others try Derek Lowe's got ideas and plans Derek Lowe's what you call a real man Derek Lowe always will provide 'Cuz Derek Lowe is the family type (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) 'Cause I'm free Free as an ex-Pirate pitching now in NYC Thank God I'm free Driftin' all around just like a tumbleweed, oh-oh Maybe I need a coach Someone who won't reproach Maybe an older fan base Will tolerate me Maybe that organization A kinder Metly nation Maybe the perfect situation To satisfy me Derek Lowe keeps his body clean Derek Lowe don't use nicotine Derek Lowe don't drink alcohol Derek Lowe use no drugs at all Derek Lowe don't eat any sweet Derek Lowe don't eat piggie's feet Derek Lowe's frame is mighty strong Derek Lowe make love hard and long (Why cant you be like Derek Lowe?) Derek Lowe loves the ladies so Derek Lowe walks 'em to the sto' Derek Lowe likes to hold their hands Derek Lowe's proud to understand Derek Lowe stands for decency Derek Lowe means formality Derek Lowe's the epitome Derek Lowe stands for quality Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe Derek Lowe LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:16 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":303i3b2c]Ollie's problem was getting out of shape and/or injured this winter, I'm not ready to call him a lost cause yet. And in general I'm not as strongly behind some of the metrics telling me Ollie sucks as I am with those that would suggest Francoeur sucks.[/quote:303i3b2c] That's because ALL the metrics tell you Francoeur sucks. (Offensive WAR-related metrics ARE a bit more foolproof than pitching... and EVERYTHING'S a lot more reliable than even the best stabs at defensive measurement... at least until that crazy new robot defense metric happens. Funny thing, though, innit-- even among statheads, offense comes first.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 13 2009 03:18 PM ="G-Fafif":3jr34d60]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3jr34d60] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem. Triple Dee Jul 14 2009 12:40 AM I always believed Perez's problems are more mental and the fact he let himself go during a walk year really speaks volumes on this. It's almost as though he believes he'll never recapture the form of his NL Cy Young winning year.* * I fail to acknowledge the actual 2004 NL Cy Young Award Winner. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 14 2009 12:34 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":3ny2lecp]="G-Fafif":3ny2lecp]If Ollie were someone else (which, granted, he's not) and had turned in the kind of performance he had last week after missing two months, he'd be widely praised for gutting it out without his best stuff and showing he knows how to win.[/quote:3ny2lecp] I don't know about "widely," but he's mostly been given qualified praise in most quarters, near as I can tell. Perez performs perfectly fine when peaking. It's precision that's the problem.[/quote:3ny2lecp] Upon further review... I'm-a have to call "bullspit." NOBODY walks 7 in 5 innings and gets praised for it; that he got as little grief/concern about it is a function of how hit-or-miss people expect Ollie to be at this point.

Greg, on rumors of a team meeting based on the fact that the clubhouse remained closed longer than usual. Given the way they've been playing, they probably accidentally locked themselves in.

This is awesome. I haven't been mad at Jack Clark in over 20 years.

He's just following the time-tested method for creating team unity: 1. Ride Bus Together 2. Rally Hats 3. Shave heads 4. Grow beards/goatees 5. Dry Hump Mascot

Mets will go 55-0 in July.