Centerfield

Nymr83 wrote: I'd go Cain over Martinez, Martinez's best position is DH and he isn't even "old" yet. I would be pretty scared to see him age defensively on a National League team - particularly OUR team! Yeah I wouldn’t kick Cain out of bed either. My leaning toward Martinez is that the Mets have been linked to Bruce. I’m not high on Bruce at all. Even having seen the “good” side. Also not good defensively. So if we’re going to give it up on the glove side, let’s at least get the elite hitter.

Going back to Eddy’s idea, if we only have one bullet then I’d go for JD Martinez. Our biggest need is offense. Until Conforto is healthy there is no logjam. While he’s out see if our bigger need is CF or 1B. Then have him fake it there. Besides. I don’t see Ces staying healthy for 162. Go get me Martinez.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The 2015 season was one of the best and most satisfying the team ever had and a bunch of dipshits spent spring training raising money to buy a billboard bragging about how tortured they were. Those fans were right. The first half of 2015 was miserable and the team was going nowhere. The fans said the addition of Michael Cuddyer wasn’t enough. They were right. Remember how “fun” it was batting Mayberry and Campbell in the middle of our lineup. It wasn’t until the team went and got Cespedes, the legitimate hitter they needed, that the team turned it around. Then they went on one of the most amazing runs we have ever seen. And finished with 90 wins.

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. Sure he is. Puma's claim is that Fred was angry at the Yankees, but not that Fred (or his son or brother-in-law) hated owning the Mets. That's Vaccaro's own notion there. If it were true, then sure, encourage him to let go of his misery. But Vacarro's asking us to jump from "Fred got angry when the Yankees grabbed a big contract" to "Fred hates owning the Mets." I think a more general misery is implied by that article. Had some line about an established pattern of hand wringing or something like that. But your point is taken. I don’t think anyone really thinks Wilpon hates owning the Mets. I think the article is more of a blow across the bow aimed at them. Anyway. I like that he is calling them out. Sometimes you need some friends with less than stellar ethics to effectuate rebellion!

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Sorry I got messed up with the quotng. I'm saying the reason the fo is upset by Omar isn't the personal motivations or ambitions of the individuals, primarily, but that a parallel chain of command could pervert their collective work. We know Sandy is all about the process. If the process gets upset then it's not going to work. This happens with the Wilpons all the time. Guys working at cross purposes, blurry chain of command, etc etc It’s like a page out of Trump’s playbook.

Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part.

He has reached out to the Wilpons for comment but they have refused to comply. Does that mean Vaccaro cannot write about them?

I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. It says Fred was irate, that this continues a pattern of hand-wringing, and that he is surprised and dismayed every time the Yanks go big. Which frankly, is all the friggin time. And frankly I’m ok with calling out the Wilpons. Let them answer for their actions.

That’s a real parade of follies. I hope you’re right that this is all Fred and not Jeff. I don’t know how one would know, but I hope like hell that you are right.

Out of curiosity what moves do we know that are attributable to Fred’s meddling? It’s hard for me to picture what moves he might be forcing without the dollars to back it up.

Run for the hills boys.

So if we really are broke, I think the hole I feel best about is centerfield. Mainly because it looks like Nimmo really can do that on-base thing. He’s displayed that skill all through the minors and during his time in the bigs. Still young, and with his frame I think his power will emerge. Maybe we can have him work with those launch angle guys. Worried about his defense as he didn’t seem that comfortable in the field in the time I saw him. But that’s why we have Lagares. As for Juan, I’m encouraged he’s working with that swing doctor. Maybe we’ll see a revelation like Turner had. He certainly has the coordination and athleticism to be a good hitter. So go get me an infielder that can mash and stick him somewhere. Get a top flight reliever and another solid arm for the rotation. I’ll live with Lagares and Nimmo. (Of course, if you want to get JD Martinez I’m cool with moving Conforto to CF or 1B)

Certainly the last thing we need is for Fred Wilpon to become active again. I think this is in line with your characterization that he’s an idiot that thinks he’s a genius. He thinks the wrath of the fan base is a result of missteps by Sandy rather than his failure to fund the payroll. Shut the fuck up Fred. Open up payroll and go away.

Well that’s disturbing. If that’s true I don’t see why you would do that to your staff. I’m sure there are talent guys out there that wouldn’t shake everyone like Omar did. Or maybe Fred is as mad as everyone says and wanted to put a charge in everyone. I was thinking what this move means. I think Fred is definitely paying attention to what is being said and it bothers him immensely. (Which is why it’s important to keep up the criticism) And though he may not be in a position to do anything about payroll, he felt he had to address the criticism that the Mets have a bad farm system on top of being broke. That the Mets produces more talent under Minaya. So he addresses it in the simplest, most unimaginative way possible, by bringing back Minaya. (And I know I suggested bringing in Minaya or someone like him the day before it happened, but I am a poster on a message board, not the owner of the Mets) Secondly, I wonder if this moves signals an acceptance of our small market mentality. Focus on player development, trade away veterans as they get more expensive. Invest in a class of prospects then hope they explode like Houston. I guess time will tell on that last one.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The thought is that he's going to be the next JD Martinez. (He's worked with the same instructor on "launch angle".) While I'm skeptical that the results will be the same for Lagares, it would be a hell of a thing if it happened just after the Mets traded him. There is like a 1000% chance this will happen if they trade him. He'll also learn how to pitch and cure cancer.

Centerfield wrote: Sorry. Should have been more clear. Sandy's a much better overall GM. But I wouldn't mind having Omar involved some way in scouting. Or really, anyone with more of a baseball background? Again, not sure that is Sandy's strong suit. I don't think he's done a good job with the farm system. Maybe the Wilpons aren't investing enough in some ways? Not sure. Wow. How crazy is this. Maybe Fred reads the board. Hi Fred!

I don’t understand all the specifics of what you just wrote but yeah we should do that. What he said.

The Astros committed to a rebuild and built a 100 win team. The Mets never committed to rebuilding and built a 90 win team.

Nymr83 wrote: Centerfield wrote: Meanwhile Sandy is on record saying that the Mets would have a "healthy" budget this year. I don't know. I don't think Sandy would put himself out there like that if the budget were falling by $20 million. I mean, we can argue over what is "healthy". I mean, I would consider top 5 to be healthy for a NY team, but I imagine that at the very least you'd have to be in the top half to make a credible argument. I guess we have no idea, but I just don't see the payroll falling that much. Healthy depends on more than just the market. the needs of the team, and what is available, matter - with degrom, syndergaard, conforto (and the team believes in Rosario and Smith) under team control for cheap "healthy" doesnt need to be top 5 for me at all. if the Mets were to go out and add Yu Darvish, Lorenzo Cain, another reliever, and a right-handed complement to Smith i'd consider the offseason a rousing success, and they'd still be nowhere near top 5 but they'd have a 'healthy' budget. 'healthy' to me for a NY team means "the budget isn't a constraint on acquiring the players who are available that meet our needs". right now, i'd say the Mets arent meeting that threshold. Fair. I certainly don't condone spending just for the sake of spending. I would say so long as the team is capable of putting a team reasonably expected to win around 95 games and compete for a division championship, I'd be ok with that.

Nymr83 wrote: NY fans would not accept the path the Astros took to win that WS. the Wilpons would never be allowed to bottom out like that. I can't speak for other fans, but if the max budget we are ever going to have is middle of the pack, this is our only chance. We have to own up to being a small market team and strategize like one. Tear it down. Rebuild. Stock that farm system, hope they pan out, then take advantage of the small window you have to compete. Lose those players as they get expensive, then tear it down again. Honestly, I much prefer that over mediocrity over and over again.

Meanwhile Sandy is on record saying that the Mets would have a "healthy" budget this year. I don't know. I don't think Sandy would put himself out there like that if the budget were falling by $20 million. I mean, we can argue over what is "healthy". I mean, I would consider top 5 to be healthy for a NY team, but I imagine that at the very least you'd have to be in the top half to make a credible argument. I guess we have no idea, but I just don't see the payroll falling that much.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Sandy has basically never had money, except last year, and that was a mistake. Sandy has never had money. Last year the Mets splurged and went all the way to 12th in payroll. I hardly call that having money. And I get that you never liked Bruce or Walker, and how you felt that was "extra" salary. But I would love to hear how those two guys, who combined for 3.7 WAR despite being traded away mid-season, constituted a "mistake". John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The Dodgers and Yankees and your other favorite teams do. Don't really understand this dig at all. The Dodgers and Yankees fund the highest payroll they can to maximize their chances of winning. And they win more often than not. Wanting the Mets to do this makes me a Dodger and Yankee fan? The Dodgers and Yankees have strong farm systems. As far as I can tell, this strength seems to be independent of money. If I want the Mets to do this also, does that make me a Dodger and Yankee fan? The Houston Astros just won the World Series. I want the Mets to do this too. Does that make me an Astro fan?

It says a lot about Fred that he hopes to win not by giving his all, but by hoping his opponents will be just as lackadaisical as him. Then being surprised and angry when they’re not.

Sorry. Should have been more clear. Sandy's a much better overall GM. But I wouldn't mind having Omar involved some way in scouting. Or really, anyone with more of a baseball background? Again, not sure that is Sandy's strong suit. I don't think he's done a good job with the farm system. Maybe the Wilpons aren't investing enough in some ways? Not sure. I thought Sandy made great trades for Noah and Zack. The results for Zack notwithstanding. I wonder how much of Sandy's subpar win record is a result of not getting clarity on the budget from the Wilpons. For instance, if when he was hired, he was told, hey this is the budget and it's never going above that. I think he would have done a Houston style rebuild. No Granderson, no DJ Carrasco. Etc. But I get the feeling he was told to build a core and that he'd be allowed to spend around it. I think he was told that as recently as October/November. But then they pulled the rug out from under him.

Certainly not advocating the return of Minaya. He wasn't a very good GM, and I have more faith in Sandy than Omar, but he seems to have had talent as a scout. He found a good deal of hidden gems during his time here. Addressing your points: *Bellinger: I'm saying that the Dodgers graduated Bellinger last year but are deep enough to still rank pretty high. Losing your top guys doesn't mean you have to drop if your system is deep enough. *I disagree that Minaya developed one superstar. deGrom is an elite pitcher. Murphy was a strong hitter for us and has turned into an MVP candidate. Harvey was, for a time, the best pitcher in baseball. Dickey won the Cy Young. That's four that could legitimately be called a superstar (even if some of those stars have faded). Familia is one of the best closers in the game, Duda his 30 HR's and is a useful player. Flores is a good sub, and Parnell and Mejia had brief periods of success. This is far better than Alderson's production. *I gave Omar credit for finding Dickey. I'm sure there's some luck involved but the degree of difficulty on finding a journeyman and turning him into a Cy Young winner is much harder than trading a Cy Young winner for a nice prospect haul. Sandy did a great job on that trade, but the topic here was player development. *The Nats didn't stumble that year just because the Mets beat them. If you reverse the head-to-head, and give the Nats 3 more wins, they still don't win the division. The Nats stumbled because they were a flawed team. We were lucky. 90 wins is usually not enough to win a division. Only Texas with 88 wins had fewer wins among the division winners that year. A team truly wanting to win a division should aim for a win total in the mid 90's. Again, I'm certainly not advocating for the return of Omar Minaya. I'm saying that if you look at Sandy's work, objectively, it's hard to argue that he has been successful. Put it another way. If we showed you these seven years of results when Alderson was hired, would you have been happy? No. You would have said I can live with a few years of down years to build a consistent winner. You would not accept years of rebuild, followed by a 90 win season, an 87 win season, then back to losing. The book is still open on Alderson, and he has time to change his legacy, but I just don't see the success to match the high expectations we had in the beginning. On Edit: All I meant by my comment about Rosario and Smith is that we don't know what they will be yet. They are highly regarded, but have just not performed at the ML level yet. Not a knock on either of them or Sandy, just explaining my reasoning for excluding them from the "it's only Michael Conforto" comment.