Centerfield

It's a tough spot for Mickey. First off, no one should have to come into the expectations he had. "We don't need better players! We got a totally smart manager! Wait til you see how smart he is! You'll laugh at the idea that we needed better players!" Secondly, I think he was legitimately caught off guard by how lacking his roster would be. Now he doesn't have answers. What else is he supposed to say?

Wait, am I reading your post right? He's hitting more line drives? Cuz I don't watch all the games, but I think I've seen him hit like two.

41Forever wrote: Edgy MD wrote: The point he made was about Ramos' extended time in that role, which isn't equivelant at all to Kevin Plawecki's time as a cleanup hitter. He's had both a far longer tenure and far more success, saves or no saves. That is correct! Wait, does that mean I get to call BS on CF calling BS on my call of BS? We’re gonna need a flow chart! I think it's your turn.

Edgy MD wrote: The point he made was about Ramos' extended time in that role, which isn't equivelant at all to Kevin Plawecki's time as a cleanup hitter. He's had both a far longer tenure and far more success, saves or no saves. I understand his point. And that would have been a great argument if I said that Kevin Plawecki is just as qualified to be called a cleanup hitter as Ramos is to be called a closer. But that wasn't the point that I made. The point I made was that labels like "closer" and "clean up hitter" are less indicative of performance than numbers. To illustrate the absurdity of relying on labels, I offered that Kevin Plawecki is a "clean up hitter". It sounds great to say "Sandy Alderson has two closers at the back end of the bullpen". It's much different when you say "Sandy Alderson has Jeurys Familia and a guy with a below average WHIP caused largely by an alarmingly high number of walks."

41Forever wrote: I think we are overthinking the analysis here. Sandy traded for an expensive middling pitcher with bad peripherals. As is often the case when a guy has bad peripherals, they eventually catch up with him. Ramos has been terrible this year, and those struggles were certainly foreseeable. The only value Ramos offered was the label "closer". See below. 41Forever wrote: Sandy saw a chance to grab a guy with closer experience And I believe that the numbers are a better indicator of future performance than labels like "closer". Kevin Plawecki now has "cleanup hitter experience". . I call l BS. Ramos had 32, 40 and 27 saves in the last three years -- for the Marlins! That's a lot more time in that role than Plawecki has ever, or will ever, have in the clean-up role. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramosaj01.shtml I call BS on your BS. Saves, like wins, are not a good indicator of performance. You looked at saves and thought Ramos would be good. I looked at WHIP, and more specifically, his walks, and thought he would not be good. He ended up not being good. That means, I was right and you were wrong. You don't get to call BS, when you are wrong.

Ok. Fair. I still stand by the second part of my statement. Centerfield wrote: I hear the line about the shrewd Sandy Alderson taking Ramos off the market. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone was interested in Ramos. And if they were, anyone with a brain can see he was the inferior option to Addison Reed. Reed had an ERA of 2.57. Ramos was 3.63. Reed WHIP was 1.112. Ramos was 1.311. Ramos had 22 walks in 39.2 innings. Reed walked 6 batters in 49 innings. Anyone paying attention knew that these pitchers were not in the same class.

I think we are overthinking the analysis here. Sandy traded for an expensive middling pitcher with bad peripherals. As is often the case when a guy has bad peripherals, they eventually catch up with him. Ramos has been terrible this year, and those struggles were certainly foreseeable. The only value Ramos offered was the label "closer". See below. 41Forever wrote: Sandy saw a chance to grab a guy with closer experience And I believe that the numbers are a better indicator of future performance than labels like "closer". Kevin Plawecki now has "cleanup hitter experience". In fact, this thinking, I believe, hurt the Mets this winter. "The bullpen doesn't need much upgrading, since Alderson already has two closers to finish games." Very dangerous to think that way. And now we are paying the price for it.

Beyond playing badly, this team is an embarrassment.

It’s the equivalent of getting a four pitch walk and then saying no thanks. I’ll keep batting.

Refusing to bunt against the shift is going to make me stop watching baseball.

Bruce has to bunt here.

Cabrera must be hurting. Hasn’t looked right for a while.

So basically, this offense is waiting in frustration for Brandon Nimmo to come up. Then if he makes an out, being especially disheartened because you won't see him again for 2 innings.

I will remember him as an embodiment of the crap we have in our farm system. Watching him pitch against the Braves thinking "We knew this doubleheader was coming up, and this is the best we got?"

I don't see how the Ramos trade makes any sense. In 2017, we were a team going nowhere looking to dump salary. Yet we took on a high salary for 2017, which is counter to everything we are doing at the time. As for 2018, it was well known that he would make $9-$10 million this year in arbitration. Which, if you look at his numbers, was not anywhere near worth it. Tons of walks. Mediocre ERA, mediocre WHIP. As I mentioned in the first post of this thread, the only "value" he had was the label "former closer". In the offseason, there was plenty of talent available that was better, and either cheaper or in the same ballpark. Including Addison Reed. Look at a guy like Cishek. Two years, $20 million. He's not on the same planet as Ramos. I hear the line about the shrewd Sandy Alderson taking Ramos off the market. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone was interested in Ramos. And if they were, anyone with a brain can see he was the inferior option to Addison Reed. Reed had an ERA of 2.57. Ramos was 3.63. Reed WHIP was 1.112. Ramos was 1.311. Ramos had 22 walks in 39.2 innings. Reed walked 6 batters in 49 innings. Anyone paying attention knew that these pitchers were not in the same class. And even if that were true, our return for Reed was still crap. Callahan, Bautista. I guess they're young still and we don't know what they might become, but I have no way of knowing if they will be any better than what we gave up to get Ramos. I have never seen a GM get a free pass like Alderson has gotten. Both from the media and the fans. I think it's because he is widely accepted as being very smart and is very well spoken. Anyone who talked like Minaya and made a move like this would be getting skewered.

Yo yo yo, I'll tell you what you do, ok? So you start off real slow, and start with her neck, then make your way down, and then just when she least suspects it, BOOM you wheel 'er chatwood, you know what I'm sayin'? (High fives all around) hahaha. She'll go nuts, and she be like all over your bautista...

To the naked eye, it looks like his bat is pretty quick to me. Has no problem getting around on the high stuff. He just, like, misses a lot. On the other hand, I always felt like John Olerud's bat speed looked slow, when obviously it wasn't.

Wade Davis. 2.35 ERA. 1.00 WHIP. 18 saves in 20 opportunities. While pitching in Colorado. Tony Watson. 2.52 ERA. 1.20 WHIP. Signed for $9 million over 2 years, with escalators taking it up to $14 million. Fernando Abad. Was reportedly signed by the Mets but ultimately was not. Can't find any stats on him. Might be dead. Any of these guys would have helped. Even the presumed-deceased Fernando Abad.

So if the plan was for Lugo to only go 4 innings, then you have to have someone ready to step in and pitch multiple innings to follow. That someone can’t be Hansel Robles. Leadoff walk. A 2 run HR. So predictable. You look at the arms in that Cub bullpen and it’s disheartening. We are not on the same planet as these guys. And we get Wheeler tomorrow. It never ends.

And as I type, he throws a flat slider.

Does he literally not have another pitch?

For now. In other news, Bautista not good.

Oh right. That’s why I watch. I love this kid.

You know, the Mets are just a miserable team to watch. I’m finding I really don’t enjoy these games at all. Frustration. Disgust. I honestly don’t know why I watch.

Edgy MD wrote: Look at that defense. All Bruce needs to do is bunt. He'd be safe nine times out of 10. Simply infuriating. He’d rather roll one over to second or fly out for the 177th time in this game.