FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

[Edgy MD]

He plays some centerfield.

Seeing as there's a lot of buzz the last 24 hours about bringing back Jay Bruce, I'd sure take Yelich as a fake centerfielder over bringing back Brucie for right and shoehorning Conforto back in the the middle.

[nymr83]

Centerfield wrote: Doesn’t he play CF? Did I make that up?

he has played the position if that is what you mean, but at least according to BR he is a negative defender there.

Cespedes and Conforto have both played some CF too, and with about as much negativity - but they are both better hitters already under contract.

(There is also Nimmo to consider)

so if you are willing to play a subpar defender in CF, move one of those guys there and you can get an equivalent hitter to Yelich to play a corner while not costing valuable player resources, only Wilpon's money - but i'd rather get a better defender in CF or spend on another spot really.

[Centerfield]

Fair point. Didn’t realize Yelich was subpar in CF.

Let’s get JD Martinez!

[Centerfield]

Back on point, Craig Calcaterra at NBC joins in.

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/12/18/marc-carig-mets-owners-are-cheap-unaccountable-unconcerned/

[G-Fafif]

Trying to pressure the Wilpons into selling may be less effective than trying to persuade some benevolent billionaire to buy. Rich getting richer real soon. Surely one of them has always wanted to be a sportsman. Let that person/group make the Wilpons an offer they can't refuse.

I like the idea of adroitly steering the owner of the Mets out front in quest of accessibility and accountability...but these owners...I've yet to hear them in public where I felt better about the operation after they've expressed themselves. Jeff went on the FAN after the first year at Citi Field (70-92) and took calls with Omar and Francesa. Somebody expressed concern about David's numbers dropping dramatically in the new ballpark, alluding to the outfield dimensions. Jeff made a joke to the effect of, "Whaddaya mean, is he eating too many Shackburgers?"

"Aargh," I thought.

[ashie62]

Edgy MD wrote: He plays some centerfield. Seeing as there's a lot of buzz the last 24 hours about bringing back Jay Bruce, I'd sure take Yelich as a fake centerfielder over bringing back Brucie for right and shoehorning Conforto back in the the middle.

Thank you.

[metirish]

This reads like a total shill job

http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-gambling-patience-pay-mets-article-1.3707776?__twitter_impression=true

[Benjamin Grimm]

The word "gamble" or "gambling" appears four times in the article, once in the headline, and once in the photo caption. I think she's making it clear that the Mets are gambling that they can win on the cheap.

[Edgy MD]

She also makes two references to rolling the dice.

[Centerfield]

Yes, but she heavily colors the situation to make it seem far less egregious, and more like a calculated decision.

According the Carig, the Wilpons are cheap and disconnected. According to Ackert, the Mets are shrewd, calculating, gambling that their bet will pay off. After all, they have had success before.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility it could pay off this season as well.

Her message, hey we did great last year, it's the same thing this year. Everything is fine.

And when it comes to spending money:

Though the Mets won’t say it publicly or on the record, it is obvious they are not going to go out and spend big money on free agents this winter. They spent their big money last year bringing back Yoenis Cespedes, they are betting that with him being healthy next season, their offense isn’t as bad as it looked in 2017.

The undertone there is unmistakeable. It's the "Mets" that won't spend money, not the Wilpons. And by the way, just remember, we spent "big money" last year. And we still have Cespedes, so there's reason to be optimistic that the offense will be better.

This is spin at its finest. It's the Wilpons that won't spend. Not the "Mets". I'm sure Sandy would spend if you gave him the money. I'm sure Mickey Callaway wouldn't say no to Wade Davis. I'm sure Noah and Jacob and Steven wouldn't kick Yu out of bed. The force that's preventing this from happening is the Wilpons.

And they did not spend "big money" last year, on Cespedes or anyone else. Their payroll ranked 12th in baseball despite being top 5 in revenues. They collected insurance on David Wright all season long. This is an outright lie.

And it is folly to think the offense will be better if Cespedes is healthy. They lost Bruce, Duda, Granderson and Walker. No player can offset four.

And that's why it's a shill job.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: And it is folly to think the offense will be better if Cespedes is healthy. They lost Bruce, Duda, Granderson and Walker. No player can offset four.

Can we stop with this direct comparison to last year? that's not actually how it works. some players will be better, some worse, etc.

Granderson was worthless the first 6 weeks or so (thought he was one of the best the rest of the, limited, way)
Bruce is 1-dimensional, he's easy to replace.
They haven't really lost Walker yet, plus that's part time too.
Duda was good but let's not forget that Smith IS highly regarded.
Rosario is also high regarded, and hopefully is replacing a lot of garbage Reyes AB.
There is some hope Plawecki could add more value than they got at C last year, plus maybe d'Arnaud finds his stroke? sometimes happens late for catchers.
Cespedes could play more games. Conforto could play more games. Nimmo complemented by Lagares may actually be an above average CFer.

And they're almost definitely going to sign a legit second baseman, so it feels weird to criticize them for not having done so yet.

They had the same weighted run creation as a team last year as the Nationals, so the bridge is not that huge.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: I do get the feeling the industry is evolving faster than the Mets as constituted know how to keep pace. Perhaps the lack of transparency Carig decries is a symptom of that. There was a time when owners staying in the background was both normal and, juxtaposed versus certain loudmouth types, appreciated. Actions spoke plenty. They still will.

I think the industry evolving stuff might actually be (somewhat) on Alderson. There seems to be some desire to not overpay. Is that payroll and budgeting, or simply not paying more than he perceives a guy is worth? Or did the Wilpons hire him because he believes the latter because of the former?

Some if it seems wise, not overpaying for relievers, maximizing trade value, but other times, like when an incremental win or two is actually huge (like going from 86->88) he doesn't seem willing to take the shot.

[dgwphotography]

I've always had the impression that Fred doesn't love the Mets, but were merely a way for him to climb socially and gain access that he wouldn't have otherwise for his real estate business.

[Centerfield]

Also, I think the whole concept of "gambling" centers around the ability to make a conscious decision. Sandy is holding his cards instead of playing them. Sure it's a bit risky, but you know Sandy, he's wild and crazy.

This is a much better public perception than "Hey look at poor broke-ass Sandy, waiting around hoping prices fall. Man, someone buy that dude a drink. He looks like he needs one."

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Also, I think the whole concept of "gambling" centers around the ability to make a conscious decision. Sandy is holding his cards instead of playing them. Sure it's a bit risky, but you know Sandy, he's wild and crazy. This is a much better public perception than "Hey look at poor broke-ass Sandy, waiting around hoping prices fall. Man, someone buy that dude a drink. He looks like he needs one."

Sometimes I wonder if it's information overload. The opposite of gambling. Right now you 'gamble' on another pitcher but if you wait until he's thrown for 2 months and trade for him, you have much more accurate and current information. You also have a better picture of your own budget and needs.

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, I feel like the real gambling doesn't really begin until your money is on the table. There's the "He who hesitates is lost" ethic, so standing by is a gamble of a sort, too, but the metaphor is mixed. It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble.

all acquisition are a gamble, some more so. I'd agree with that statement, but I'd also agree that those same fans, three years down the road, would criticize the Mets for giving money to bad contracts and trapping themselves financially. In fact, I'd say many of the same fans blame Omar for exactly that.

My point has always been that the Wilpons and Sandy are acting in a risk-adverse way, so that the team will never again be financially impacted by a Madoff situation. i.e. they never want the Mets to be operating in the red again, so they never want to be at risk of losing the team.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I definitely understand the frustration. I feel it too. It appears, for now at least, that the Mets are more or less standing pat after a 70-win season. And sure, if everything goes right, that could lead to a championship season. (That, I think, is the gamble.) But the Mets absolutely should be planning on doing what it takes to make it less of a gamble. On Mets Hot Stove last night, they were saying that the Phillies have plenty of money to spend. I couldn't help but think, "Oh, great! Good for them! Too bad I'm rooting for a middle-market team that somehow plays its home games in New York City."

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble. all acquisition are a gamble, some more so. I'd agree with that statement, but I'd also agree that those same fans, three years down the road, would criticize the Mets for giving money to bad contracts and trapping themselves financially. In fact, I'd say many of the same fans blame Omar for exactly that. My point has always been that the Wilpons and Sandy are acting in a risk-adverse way, so that the team will never again be financially impacted by a Madoff situation. i.e. they never want the Mets to be operating in the red again, so they never want to be at risk of losing the team.

I agree with most all of that. "Risk-averse" is probably the best description. And beyond it being a philosophy prompted by the team's debt, it may well be one that's at least somewhat reflective of Alderson's sensibility as well.

[Guest 41Forever]

And they did not spend "big money" last year, on Cespedes or anyone else. Their payroll ranked 12th in baseball despite being top 5 in revenues.

Not for nothing, but 2017 Opening Day payrolls of teams in the postseason (and the Mets), and their rank overall:

1) Dodgers, $242 million
2) MFYs, $201 million
3) Red Sox, $199 million
8) Cubs, $172 million
9) Nationals, $167 million
12) Mets, $155 million
17) Indians, $124.8 million
18) World Champion Astros, $124.3 million
26) Diamondbacks, $93 million

Source: https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/heres-every-mlb-teams-opening-day-payroll-for-2017/

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think we all agree that you can win with a lower payroll, if you happen to be fortunate enough to have a lot of young talent, but to be forced to try to win with a lower payroll imposes a constraint that makes it harder to do so.

And that, apparently, is where the Mets are.

[Edgy MD]

But having young talent isn't just (or even mostly) a matter of fortune.

[Guest 41Forever]

I think the Mets have young talent (albeit with health issues) -- Thor, deGrom, Matz, Conforto, Rosario -- but need some solid players to surround themselves with. Is it better to spend a boatload on a Stanton/Pujols/Harper type or get solid mid-level guys like Bruce and Walker to surround them?

I kinda liked the way the team was built last season if not for the devastating injuries. (Granted, that's like saying the Titanic was a great ship if not for the problem with icebergs.)

[batmagadanleadoff]

I think we all agree that you can win with a lower payroll, if you happen to be fortunate enough to have a lot of young talent, but to be forced to try to win with a lower payroll imposes a constraint that makes it harder to do so. And that, apparently, is where the Mets are.

Here's what I'd note about the Mets, the Wilpons and young talent: Ever since Fred became the de facto majority owner of the Mets, running things his way (very early 90s) the Mets have had, for the most part and with few exceptions, a dreadful, barren farm system. Which is what they have right now, by the way. There's a simple reason why the Mets, who play in NYC, have just two first place finishes in about 30 years.

In addition to the oodles of money the Yankees spend, how the hell did they suddenly assemble all of that awesome young major league talent they currently have, being that they almost always finish a season with what is among the best records in baseball, and thus, pick later rather than earlier in the amateur drafts?

[batmagadanleadoff]

To see people rationalizing the Wilpons by noting that you don't need to have the highest payroll to win, or that the Mets could win with this approach or that approach is infuriating because the Wilpons don't win no matter what they do. They always lose and the Mets are never in the playoffs, not nearly as much as they oughtta be. They may not have Yankee money but they likely have more money than any of their NL East opponents. Two first place finishes in about 30 years, playing in a five team division for the most part, where the Mets are one of the five teams -- meaning that the Mets have only four other division opponents to beat.

You can pooh pooh the importance of payroll all you want, but the best Mets squads the Wilpons ever fielded was when they broke into their hermetically sealed piggy bank and splurged for free agents Beltran & Pedro, and paid Carlos Delgado free agent sized money.

[Edgy MD]

I'm sorry to infuriate you.

I'm not rationalizing the Wilpons.

The Mets don't always lose and are not never in the playoffs.

I really hope that observation doesn't infuriate you.

[ashie62]

This is a topic that will clear more as the off season evolves.

I am going to try not to speculate and chill.

[Edgy MD]

Interestingly, that was beat-writer Carig's first attempt at putting on the columnist hat for Newsday.

[ashie62]

Carig certainly planted his flag here.

[Centerfield]

A few guys on twitter are trolling the 7 Line retweeting his stuff from 2011. He brags about wanting to fill the stadium with Sell the Team shirts. Laughs about seeing Jeff Wilpon while wearing one.

You know, if you’re going to come out defiant and claim you are a fan that follows blindly and that nothing can be done about it, you better hope that there is no evidence online exposing you as a bullshit artist.