Ricco: It's Zobrist or dick for us this winter

[Centerfield]

More or less.

Article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/07/sports/baseball/new-york-mets-meetings-ben-zobrist-yoenis-cespedes.html

We know that they are pursuing Zobrist. If he goes elsewhere?

Likely no Murphy.

If Zobrist signs elsewhere, the Mets did not seem to have a clear fallback plan. Ricco said they would be interested in re-signing Daniel Murphy then, depending on his contract demands, “the dollars and length, and what else we’re going to do.” But Ricco warned that the market to sign Murphy would be competitive, especially after his playoff performance.

The Mets have said that they would be comfortable starting Dilson Herrera, 21, at second base and bringing in a veteran to play now and then to relieve pressure on him.

That is actually encouraging. Considering some reports have them giving money to Asdrubal Cabrera.

On Cespedes:

“I think it’s unlikely right now that he ends up a Met, I think that’s fair to say,” Ricco said. “I think we will end up meeting with his agent. Right now, I still think he’s looking at a deal that would be north of what we would consider.”

I guess we've all suspected it. But it's a bit jarring to hear him come flat out and say we can't afford him.

But the worst news in the article:

The Mets would like to add complementary players in the bullpen and the outfield. Because they want to play Michael Conforto and Juan Lagares regularly, they are not looking for an “everyday” outfielder, Ricco said, but more of a veteran who could platoon with them.

Heyward and Upton are out. In fact, all good players are out. We are just looking to add guys not good enough to hold down a full-time job.

So basically, our only chance to offset the loss of Cespedes and Murphy is Ben Fucking Zobrist. And for those who are excited about Zobrist, consider this. We are afraid of going 5 or 6 years on Cespedes because of how old he would be toward the end of that deal. If we gave Cespedes that 6 year deal, he would be 35 when that deal expired. That is how old Zobrist is now. And we are about to give him a four year deal.

[Centerfield]

This article has the actual quote on the everyday outfielders:

"Those everyday guys aren't as attractive to us," Ricco said.

http://www.bigstory.ap.org/article/cb5445f3e596455eb9c2b018d25ea45c/thanks-memories-mets-likely-out-cespedes

Yes John. Those everyday outfielders are not attractive. Let's pass up three outfielders in their prime who have historically all been better than Ben Zobrist, and give Zobrist a multi-year deal for his age 35-38 years.

This is a fucking joke. Just because you spend less money doesn't make it any less of a risk. Probability of return on your investment is just as much of a factor as the actual dollars spent.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think it's quite age that triggers a risk aversion with Cespedes, so much as the his skill set being so volatile and age-dependent, if that distinction makes sense.

It made more sense when LWFS dumped on me for Cespedes-wishing.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I get the Maybe Murph argument; after all, Murph made some (apparently sustainable) significant offensive-approach adjustments last year, and we have a very good idea of the floor of what he'll give us over the life of the next deal... it's just that it'll be a more expensive version of Same Old Murph. If you've got significant doubts about Zobrist's aging curve, I get that, and I get Murph as a devil-you-know alternative. But if you're worried about aging, and bang for buck, holy SHIT is Cespedes the wrong basket in which to store your $100M+ eggs. Deficient on-base skills, highly BABIP-and-athleticism-dependent value... the floor on a large-scale contract with this sort of skill set, well, it's hard to see the bottom. This is the kind of guy that falls off a fucking cliff once age hits, and the kind of guy who will likely provide below-AAV value in off- or normal years, health-and-aging issues aside.

I don't think that should be the last word. But it's a strong word.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm okay with letting Cespedes go. That nonchalant play in the outfield on that inside-the-park homer in World Series Game 1 gave us a good look at his downside. It doesn't bode well for how he'd be playing five years into his huge contract.

I do wish that the Mets were in on Heyward, but we've known for a while that they're not, and I've come to accept that.

In 2019, I think it's likely that Ben Zobrist at $15 million will be better than Yoenis Cespedes at $25 million, so I'm okay with this.

[Centerfield]

*avi

Edited December 7, 2015 by Guest

[Centerfield]

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't think it's quite age that triggers a risk aversion with Cespedes, so much as the his skill set being so volatile and age-dependent, if that distinction makes sense. It made more sense when LWFS dumped on me for Cespedes-wishing. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I get the Maybe Murph argument; after all, Murph made some (apparently sustainable) significant offensive-approach adjustments last year, and we have a very good idea of the floor of what he'll give us over the life of the next deal... it's just that it'll be a more expensive version of Same Old Murph. If you've got significant doubts about Zobrist's aging curve, I get that, and I get Murph as a devil-you-know alternative. But if you're worried about aging, and bang for buck, holy SHIT is Cespedes the wrong basket in which to store your $100M+ eggs. Deficient on-base skills, highly BABIP-and-athleticism-dependent value... the floor on a large-scale contract with this sort of skill set, well, it's hard to see the bottom. This is the kind of guy that falls off a fucking cliff once age hits, and the kind of guy who will likely provide below-AAV value in off- or normal years, health-and-aging issues aside. I don't think that should be the last word. But it's a strong word.

I get that sustainability is a factor. I think first off, it's incredibly difficult to predict. (Everyone thought Rickey had the type of game that would age quickly. Everyone thought Alfonzo's production was sustainable.) The point to remember is that Zobrist, being much older, is just as much of a risk to fall off as Cespedes. And there is no question that Cespedes is likely to far out-produce Zobrist over the next 3-4 years.

And that's fine if you are not on the Cespedes bandwagon. There is Heyward. And Upton. And even Denard Fucking Span. When you eliminate every day outfielders, you are leaving yourself with scrubs. Scrubs. You can call them "veterans who can platoon with our existing players" but that is another way of saying scrubs.

John Ricco is saying we cannot afford good players.

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: I think first off, it's incredibly difficult to predict.

Certainly.

Centerfield wrote: The point to remember is that Zobrist, being much older, is just as much of a risk to fall off as Cespedes.

Maybe. But the LWFS suggestion is that Cespedes' skill set ages faster and harder, declines steeper. I don't know.

[Centerfield]

I don't argue with that. Cespedes certainly seems like the type of guy who is likely to see a drop in production because of the way he plays.

But Zobrist is a guy who is likely to see a drop in production because he's 35 years old.

And while it's not likely that the Cespedes dropoff would happen for the next 3 years, the Zobrist dropoff could just as easily happen tomorrow.

[Ceetar]

I don't feel like arguing about these players again, but I will say this

I wouldn't take anything a (Mets) official says publicly about their plans. Especially when it's John Ricco acting as a proxy.

[Centerfield]

Anyway, the point is that the owners are fucking us over. John Ricco is telling us before the winter meetings, that the owners have handcuffed them so don't expect dick.

Wilpon promised that he would spend money once the fans showed up.

Which, by the way, is a dick move to begin with. You don't put the onus on the fans asswipe. You put the product out there first.

But in any case, because of the brilliance of his GM, they fielded a winner, went to the World Series, brought in tons of revenue for the club. And now Wilpon is saying "Yeah, about that. See, I was just kidding. Still no money. Sorry."

And it's one thing to suspect it. It's another to hear stated so flatly.

I guess the rest of you guys knew all along that this would happen. I guess I was the idiot who thought that they might actually make good on their word. I don't know. Fuck these Wilpons. Fuck them with a fucking spoon.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Guest

[MFS62]

We have been pleasantly surprised by moves made by the Alderson team many times.
Let's wait and see what happens.

Later

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: I don't feel like arguing about these players again, but I will say this I wouldn't take anything a (Mets) official says publicly about their plans. Especially when it's John Ricco acting as a proxy.

That's a fair point. And I considered this. Maybe this is Ricco just acting coy.

Except that there is no benefit to stating you are out on the outfielders. First off, if you were serious about signing them, you would have had contact with their agents. And so they would know you were full of shit if you said otherwise.

Secondly, a statement like this actually hurts your chances with Zobrist. If I am Zobrist's agent, I read this and say: "Hey Ben. You are their only chance to save face this winter. If you don't sign with them, they are stuck trying to justify Asdrubal Cabrera. No way you take less than four years."

In fact, saying the exact opposite helps them.

John Ricco: "Look, everyone knows we are linked with Zobrist. But we can get that production from Cespedes or Heyward too. We can go a lot of different directions here." And you can say this even if you don't really mean it.

Ricco's words are designed to have one effect. Dampen fan expectations. And it's done at the last possible moment, before the winter meetings, as far as possible from the sting of the WS loss.

[Edgy MD]

And folks complained about Alderson's doublespeak and playing close to his vest. Well, this is what plainspeak looks like.

[Ceetar]

even if we're assuming that these comments even mean as much as thinly veiled negotiation ploys and not just "reporters need me to say something" Zobrist is coveted by everyone and it doesn't really make sense to play coy with him. You want to him to feel like him signing here makes him the man, gets him another ring, etc.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: And folks complained about Alderson's doublespeak and playing close to his vest. Well, this is what plainspeak looks like.

Right? I wonder if Sandy is pissed off someplace about how many cards were shown last night.

[bmfc1]

I'm OK with the Mets making decisions for baseball reasons (obviously). They made lots of good decisions in 2015.
I'm not OK with the Mets making decisions for monetary/Madoff-based reasons.

After 7 home playoff games, all of the extra tickets sold in August and September, the increase in season ticket holders, merchandise, et al., it's time to put those excuses to bed. We were told "if you show up, we'll spend money." Fans showed up so do what you said. Why don't they want Heyward? Is it because of money or a baseball reason (e.g. they don't need a corner OF'er)? If Todd Frazier is available, then why don't they want him? Is it because they can't find a position for him or they don't want to add a big contract? I hope that they aren't planning on "staying close" again until July and making another big deal because there is not guarantee that they will, in fact, "stay close" and if so, if a Cespedes will be available.

[Centerfield]

bmfc1 wrote: I'm OK with the Mets making decisions for baseball reasons (obviously). They made lots of good decisions in 2015. I'm not OK with the Mets making decisions for monetary/Madoff-based reasons. After 7 home playoff games, all of the extra tickets sold in August and September, the increase in season ticket holders, merchandise, et al., it's time to put those excuses to bed. We were told "if you show up, we'll spend money." Fans showed up so do what you said. Why don't they want Heyward? Is it because of money or a baseball reason (e.g. they don't need a corner OF'er)? If Todd Frazier is available, then why don't they want him? Is it because they can't find a position for him or they don't want to add a big contract? I hope that they aren't planning on "staying close" again until July and making another big deal because there is not guarantee that they will, in fact, "stay close" and if so, if a Cespedes will be available.

Exactly. Not to mention that Michael Fullmer has already been traded, and so further moves like this deplete the farm system more. (Which hurts the philosophy of scouting and development.)

Incidentally, Ricco also planted the seed of trading Niese. Who just happens to be our most expensive starting pitcher...

[Lefty Specialist]

This is all blah, blah, blah until people sign. If we look back in March and did nothing, well, then I'll lower the boom. But things are very fluid right now for a lot of teams.

Hell, last year I didn't think there was a chance in hell they'd sign Cuddyer. And after that I thought they'd do something more than John Freaking Mayberry Jr. So I'll wait and see.

While I'm happy to crucify the Wilpons when it's needed, I won't crucify them for something that they haven't done yet.

[nymr83]

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: And folks complained about Alderson's doublespeak and playing close to his vest. Well, this is what plainspeak looks like. Right? I wonder if Sandy is pissed off someplace about how many cards were shown last night.

Orhis new plan is to send out Ricco to lie to the press while he negotiates a big deal with Heyward's agent.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

ZOBRIST/SPAN: The Possibly Affordable Plan?

[Centerfield]

Better than:

ZOBRIST OR DICK. IT WILL MAKE YOU SICK.

[Edgy MD]

Mmmmm... dick...

[Centerfield]

Now it's going to be really interesting. I found myself wondering what would have happened had Cuddyer taken the QO and spurned the Mets last year. They would not have been allowed to take the easy option and would have been forced to either spend money, get creative, or admit failure.

Now that Zobrist, the easy out, is off the table, I wonder what they will do. Public pressure will be big to make a big move. Do they do it? Do they try to sell us on Cabrera and Parra?

We'll see.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

If only the Mets had ever made a Plan B deal after Plan A fell apart.

[Edgy MD]

Oh, they have. Not to my satisfaction, but they have.

Todd Zeile after Jon Olerud walked. Kevin Appier after Mike Hampton took a hike.

Plan Bs cut no ice with me. Pivot and move on. Principles, not plans. Philosophies of war, not battle strategies.

Maybe some guy wants to start a billboard campaign. But hey, it's just Ben Zobrist.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Yeah, I was making reference to the Gomez-Flores-Cespedes thingy.

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: If only the Mets had ever made a Plan B deal after Plan A fell apart.

To tell you the truth, their Plan A was no great shakes either.

[Edgy MD]

Agreed.

[Frayed Knot]

Vince Coleman in response to post-Darryl Strawberry

[Edgy MD]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah, I was making reference to the Gomez-Flores-Cespedes thingy.

Woosh.