IGT 5/13 NYM@CUBS - Harvey Days are Here Again

[Edgy MD]

Designated hitters have shown a capacity for doing stupid lazy stuff too. It's practically in the job description.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Of course he couldn't do anything. Your job as baserunner on a popup is to jog back within safety distance of the bag and then watch to see if the ball somehow falls in. With the popup 60 feet away from the bag, safety distance is spitting distance. Harvey's job is to assume nothing, and run like a cheetah until he hears an ump call him out. He assumed, and he ended up looking stupid and lazy.

Exactly.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Of course he couldn't do anything. Your job as baserunner on a popup is to jog back within safety distance of the bag and then watch to see if the ball somehow falls in. With the popup 60 feet away from the bag, safety distance is spitting distance. Harvey's job is to assume nothing, and run like a cheetah until he hears an ump call him out. He assumed, and he ended up looking stupid and lazy. Exactly.

There's not really much he could've done, no. Just wondering if perhaps there was some chaos to be sown in reaction to realizing Harvey wasn't going to make it once the ball dropped rather than about facing again and making a hopeless 80 yard dash.

I'm not excusing Harvey, in fact I'm heaping MORE blame. Do you think Harvey's going to take more BP? more bunting drills? his job is to be an automatic out and occasionally get lucky otherwise. With very few exceptions the entire league treats it like that. It's stupid, but if they're not going to care about it, just put in the damn DH.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: There's not really much he could've done, no.

Run like the Devil was on his tail.

Ceetar wrote: Just wondering if perhaps there was some chaos to be sown in reaction to realizing Harvey wasn't going to make it once the ball dropped rather than about facing again and making a hopeless 80 yard dash.

I'm not sure what this means. Run, and there's no realization to be had.

Ceetar wrote: I'm not excusing Harvey, in fact I'm heaping MORE blame.

No, you're deflecting to your pro-DH campaign.

Ceetar wrote: Do you think Harvey's going to take more BP? more bunting drills?

I think he ought to run, first and foremost. Become a more effective bunter? That would be GREAT.

Ceetar wrote: his job is to be an automatic out and occasionally get lucky otherwise.

No, that does not correctly characterize his job.

Ceetar wrote: With very few exceptions the entire league treats it like that. It's stupid, but if they're not going to care about it, just put in the damn DH.

I agree with the part about the DH being damnable. But I would campaign for more caring, not fewer things worth caring about.

[Ceetar]

so right now, Harvey should be running? What do you think he's going to do to correct the problem of failing to bunt and failing to drive in runners at the plate? Hell, he could do the same thing and there's a decent chance no one even bothers to do what the Cubs did. So many fielders (often pitchers) don't even give a look at second or third when fielding bunts.

I've always said I prefer pitcher's taking hitting more seriously to the DH. But I'm tired of the charade. They are NOT taking hitting seriously. There's no strategy anymore because they all suck. Bartolo Colon gets up and we're all laughing about how he might accidentally get on base but it'll be funny looking if he doesn't. Somehow a 24 out game is funny.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: And the runner (was it Plawecki? I'm blanking) was basically back to first base anyway. I know instinct says to run when you realize he's dropping it, but he should've just stayed at first right? Or gotten into a rundown at least. If they throw to second, he can get back to first. If they run at him, maybe Harvey has time to get to first.

You do realize that the runner (it was Dilson) was forced, right?

[Edgy MD]

No, man, right now he should be beating himself up for not running, apologizing to any and all, and reminding himself (with mental hammers) of his obligation to himself, his teammates, his fans, his mother, and whatever higher power he believes in to run until he is established as safe or out. Beyond that, yes, becoming more effective through practice and review is do-able.

But then you deflect into your DH argument. Again.

I don't get the passage Frayed quotes above. When the ball drops, the runner is forced.

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: - Duda is now Better this season vs LHPs than against RHP [.400/.447/.600 vs .244/.347/.384]. Yeah, it's a small sample [38 PA vs 103] but, still, that's a stunning turn-around! If this is a year ago and he's leading off the 9th in a tie game vs a lefty brought in specifically to face him you're looking at the lineup card for available RH pinch-hitters. Last night he quickly gets down 0-2 but then just as quickly smacks a liner into LF and is on as the go-ahead run.

I get the idea that this surprising statistical situation, apart from the SSS, is partially that, as lefties are pitching him more aggressively � in part because the old scouting report says he can't be this good against them, and in part because they're brought in to get him in late-and-close situations, when their job is to get him out and not pitch around him.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: No, man, right now he should be beating himself up for not running, apologizing to any and all, and reminding himself (with mental hammers) of his obligation to himself, his teammates, his fans, his mother, and whatever higher power he believes in to run until he is established as safe or out. Beyond that, yes, becoming more effective through practice and review is do-able. But then you deflect into your DH argument. Again. I don't get the passage Frayed quotes above. When the ball drops, the runner is forced.

yeah. I'm just postulating. I don't blame Dilson for not making it happen, I'm just wondering what would happen if he'd just stayed at first. Would Castro be confused and hesitate to make the return throw? If he pauses and makes like he's breaking back to first, could he distract Rizzo enough to give Harvey time to get to first? It's all hidden ball level stuff, but when Rizzo picked up the ball, he was probably 70 feet from second. Not even close enough to make a hard slide. Sometimes I wonder if runners would be better off jumping while running to first to block a throw ala a hockey defenseman when they're too far to slide.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: yeah. I'm just postulating. I don't blame Dilson for not making it happen, I'm just wondering what would happen if he'd just stayed at first.

He would have been out by 90 feet instead of 15, and would have removed the possibility of him being safe on a bad throw.

Sometimes I wonder if runners would be better off jumping while running to first to block a throw ala a hockey defenseman when they're too far to slide.

He'd still be out and now the runner behind him would automatically be called out on account of someone already out of the play interfering with the remainder of the play, thus turning the DP from a probability into a certainty.

[Edgy MD]

I assume he means running to second.

Another possibility would be that the runner would be dead. Jumping, face first, into the path of a the relay from the shortstop, twenty feet away? Really?

[seawolf17]

There's only one way we get out of that botched bunt with only one out. As soon as Rizzo sees that Harvey's not running, it's an easy DP. Harvey hustles, it forces Rizzo to just catch the ball and get the out. Dilson had no way of knowing that Rizzo was going to let it drop, and if he runs, then whoever catching for the Cubs yells to Rizzo to catch it and then he's doubled off first.

[Edgy MD]

Turning point of the game.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: I assume he means running to second.

I assumed that too.
If, while running towards 2nd, the runner intentionally interferes with a throw -- either the one to get him or the throw after that one -- then he's out (assuming he wasn't already) and the umps can automatically thumb out the runner behind him as well even if the relay throw never got to 1st because it's now bouncing around in shallow right field somewhere with half the runner's nose still attached and Rob Manfred's signature imprinted on his face.
If said runner can make it look like it wasn't intentional then good luck with that (go in standing up and you're likely to get a face full of ball courtesy of a sidearm relay) but I don't think you can sell that while in the process of imitating a lineman trying to block a punt.

[TransMonk]

Edgy MD wrote: Turning point of the game.

Well, that and not scoring with bases loaded and one out in the first.

Maybe the first is too early for a turning point, but it was a major opportunity to score and change the complexion of the game with Harvey on the mound.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: Another possibility would be that the runner would be dead. Jumping, face first, into the path of a the relay from the shortstop, twenty feet away? Really?

Yeah, thinking outside the box isn't always a good thing.