IGT 4/28 NYM@MIA Montero Tree Service Trimdown

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

We are without books tonight.

[Guest themetfairy]

We are illiterate.

[Centerfield]

This is the first game I can remember in a while where I feel like the manager gave it away. I understand sitting Cuddyer because he has looked lost. But you cannot play Recker and Tejada in the same night. Especially on a night where we are starting Montero. You don't pitch to Stanton there. Make someone else beat you. Tejada should have sat down after Flores pinch hit. And you absolutely fucking do NOT bunt Tejada there after the Murphy double.

Of the Marlins 4 runs, one was driven in by Stanton with 2 bases open. Another came in on a wild pitch. The last one came after Torres walked two hitters. It's enough to make you rip your hair out.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Centerfield wrote: You don't pitch to Stanton there. Make someone else beat you.

Yabbut, if Montero had that pitch, like, an inch more to the outside, Stanton rolls it to second. The failure there was more execution than plan, methinks. The bigger problems that inning were all the sloppy play, the seemingly iffy positioning, and pulling Montero, who had only given up one hard-hit ball-- and no walks-- in the frame. What does Carlyle give you there that Montero (who nearly tiptoed around 3-0 to Stanton) doesn't?

And you absolutely fucking do NOT bunt Tejada there after the Murphy double.

Again, the real problem was the execution. I probably don't call for a bunt there myself, but if there's one time you do, it's in a tie game, late, in that situation, right? (And if Tejada isn't giving you an across-the-board 'little things' upgrade when he spot-starts... then why the spot-starts? And why not Tovar?)

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: This is the first game I can remember in a while where I feel like the manager gave it away. I understand sitting Cuddyer because he has looked lost. But you cannot play Recker and Tejada in the same night. Especially on a night where we are starting Montero. You don't pitch to Stanton there. Make someone else beat you. Tejada should have sat down after Flores pinch hit. And you absolutely fucking do NOT bunt Tejada there after the Murphy double. Of the Marlins 4 runs, one was driven in by Stanton with 2 bases open. Another came in on a wild pitch. The last one came after Torres walked two hitters. It's enough to make you rip your hair out.

I agree with a lot of this. And you left out batting Tejada sixth. But there are also execution problems to nail them for. Murphy should have scored on the dropped fly, and Terry should have pulled him when he did not. Tejada should have gotten that bunt to the right side.

[TransMonk]

Yeah, the Mets didn't deserve to win this one. Too much bad strategy and poor execution.

From what I've read this morning, it sounds like Terry gave Tejada the choice of bunting or trying to advance the runner with an opposite-field swing. That seems to me an even worse decision than just telling Rubin to bunt outright. Why would you leave such a big decision in a tight game up to your light-hitting back-up shortstop?

FWIW, I would have walked Stanton, but I understand why they chose not to.

[Edgy MD]

Complacency is the true arch-rival!

[Centerfield]

The "had he executed" line of reasoning is not a valid defense to a bad decision. I can pinch hit Bartolo Colon in a sacrifice fly situation and justify its failure with "Had he executed like we know he's capable of...". It still does not make it a good decision.

A decision is based upon whether or not you maximized your team's chances of success. And for the choices I cited, Terry Collins did not.

1. The Lineup: 6-9 in that lineup are lifeless. Like I said, it is one thing to rest a regular or two. Resting three in one day while starting a spot starter is putting yourself at a big disadvantage before the game even starts. And like Edgy said, batting Tejada 6th? This is a joke.

2. Pitching to Stanton: Yes, had Montero made a better pitch, it is possible that Stanton would have rolled it over. But regardless of whether Montero made a good pitch or bad pitch the guy behind Stanton is far more likely to roll it over than Stanton. And if Ozuna rolls it over with Stanton on it's a double play. The guys in the booth expected the walk. Recker expected the walk. I think everyone in the ballpark was expecting the walk. Everyone except Collins. Keep in mind, we gave an IBB to Adeiny Echevarria in a tie game and a base open, but we pitched to Mike Stanton.

3. Tejada staying in over Flores: When you pinch hit Flores, you now have two shortstops in the game. Which one do you keep and which one do you sit? If you are up you can keep Tejada. If you are tied or if you are behind, you need more runs. You keep Flores in the game. Had he done so, it would have been a pinch hitter batting after the Murphy double and not Tejada.

4. Tejada Bunt: I can understand the temptation to bunt here since Tejada is not a very good hitter. (This is why you take him out of the game earlier). But he is also not a very good bunter. We have seen this over the years. Everyone assumes he can bunt because he is little, and a middle infielder and Latino. But he sucks at bunting. And Murph is not a good baserunner. Even if you think the bunt is the right call here, with the personnel you have up there, the chances of it being successful are small. This was an awful call.

Sure, there were tons of execution problems too. Torres looked like crap. Granderson had the error that started it all. And the Carlyle wild pitch. But the mistakes made by the manager are ones that are absolutely avoidable.

[Frayed Knot]

Biggest sin of last night was Carlyle giving up halfway to home whilst Recker was hustling his ass off to retrieve Carlyle's WP.
If Buddy doesn't practically stop on his way to home only to gear up again too late then he's at the plate waiting for the on time and accurate throw and we probably get the out on Ozuna.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: This is the first game I can remember in a while where I feel like the manager gave it away. I understand sitting Cuddyer because he has looked lost. But you cannot play Recker and Tejada in the same night. Especially on a night where we are starting Montero. You don't pitch to Stanton there. Make someone else beat you. Tejada should have sat down after Flores pinch hit. And you absolutely fucking do NOT bunt Tejada there after the Murphy double. Of the Marlins 4 runs, one was driven in by Stanton with 2 bases open. Another came in on a wild pitch. The last one came after Torres walked two hitters. It's enough to make you rip your hair out. I agree with a lot of this. And you left out batting Tejada sixth. But there are also execution problems to nail them for. Murphy should have scored on the dropped fly, and Terry should have pulled him when he did not. Tejada should have gotten that bunt to the right side.

I forgot about the Murph play. Edgy is right. Terry should not accept that. No one remembers the Castillo drop if the MFY's are not running hard. This was an embarrassing game.

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: The "had he executed" line of reasoning is not a valid defense to a bad decision.

Yeah, I bring up execution as an additional sin, not as the real sin or anything.

If I'm starting Tejada, I bat him second and Laggy fifth, so at least I can take advantage of his on-base skill. Batting in the middle of the lineup, well, he's the guy you want to face with runners on base.

[Centerfield]

Understood. I was addressing LWFS. He is my real enemy in this thread. I hate him.

[Edgy MD]

Frayed Knot wrote: Biggest sin of last night was Carlyle giving up halfway to home whilst Recker was hustling his ass off to retrieve Carlyle's WP. If Buddy doesn't practically stop on his way to home only to gear up again too late then he's at the plate waiting for the on time and accurate throw and we probably get the out on Ozuna.

This is true. And how surreal was it that the Mets fell behind on a boner in the late innings and Keith just couldn't stop talking about how great Recker looked on that play, even though it ultimately failed?

Complacency, complacency, complacency. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia.

[Centerfield]

Frayed Knot wrote: Biggest sin of last night was Carlyle giving up halfway to home whilst Recker was hustling his ass off to retrieve Carlyle's WP. If Buddy doesn't practically stop on his way to home only to gear up again too late then he's at the plate waiting for the on time and accurate throw and we probably get the out on Ozuna.

Absolutely. The errors, the baserunning mistakes, lack of hustle. Wins and losses aside, this team is doing some dumb shit out there. I know this sounds alarmist for a first place team, but they need to address and get this out of their system.

Train wreck!

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: If I'm starting Tejada, I bat him second....

Tejada's no #2 hitter. Not that there aren't a shitload of former and current managers who reflexively put some crappy light hitting crappy hitter in that slot. I'm looking right at you, Wee Willie SmallBalls. The #2 slot is the most abused and misunderstood slot in a baseball lineup.

[Edgy MD]

Well, I don't think he's that crappy. At least with regard to his on-base abilities.

He's not my first choice, but considering the spring training array of starters they were going with yesterday, he would have been the one I'd have gone for in that position.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Well, I don't think he's that crappy. At least with regard to his on-base abilities. He's not my first choice, but considering the spring training array of starters they were going with yesterday, he would have been the one I'd have gone for in that position.

Tejada's lifetime OBP is .327. That's crap in my book, although, yeah, so was yesterday's collection of position starters.

Fun fact:

William Friedkin preferred Jackie Gleason over Gene Hackman for the role of Popeye Doyle in The French Connection.

"Bang! Zoom!"

[Frayed Knot]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Tejada's lifetime OBP is .327. That's crap in my book, although, yeah, so was yesterday's collection of position starters.

NL league-wide OBP last year was .312
Is .310 so far this season

[batmagadanleadoff]

So do you want your #2 hitter to be just a tick above average in OBP? I don't. Now if your overall offense sucks, that's another thing. Thanks to this terrible lineup construction tradition, fans accept (and I don't necessarily say "youse") a #2 hitter that's average, or even crappy, because, you know, what does his crappiness matter if he can sac bunt the leadoff guy over to the next base? Put a crappy hitter in the #2 hole and compound that dumb move by having him intentionally destroying a chance for a big inning, even in the first inning, right before the most potent hitters are due up.

[Edgy MD]

All that matters to me is his relative on-base-iness to Juan Lagares (.304 obp), and Lagares' relative slugginess to his (.368 to .317).

Fooey on the rest of the league.

[Chad ochoseis]

I'm loving MLB.tv, which I just purchased. I don't have cable, but if I resist the urge to check scores and lurk in the IGT, I can watch night games in the morning when I'm getting ready for work and still be in suspense.

I have absolutely no problem with pitching to Stanton in the sixth. Even Stanton makes outs sometimes, and why put runners on in a close game? In any event, Montero pitched carefully and well to him, and he only hit a single.

The big Terry problem I had last night was walking the #8 hitter in the 5th with a runner on second to get to the pitcher. Why??? Hecheverria isn't that much of a threat. Get him out and you have Phelps leading off in the sixth rather than Gordon, and maybe the inning plays out differently.

For the #6 healthy starting pitcher in the org, Montero is pretty damn good.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: All that matters to me is his relative on-base-iness to Juan Lagares (.304 obp), and Lagares' relative slugginess to his.

Yeah. I agree with you on that larger point: yesterday's eight position starters, collectively, was the real problem.

[Frayed Knot]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: So do you want your #2 hitter to be just a tick above average in OBP? I don't. Now if your overall offense sucks, that's another thing. Thanks to this terrible lineup construction tradition, fans accept (and I don't necessarily say "youse") a #2 hitter that's average, or even crappy, because, you know, what does his crappiness matter if he can sac bunt the leadoff guy over to the next base? Put a crappy hitter in the #2 hole and compound that dumb move by having him intentionally destroying a chance for a big inning, even in the first inning, right before the most potent hitters are due up.

Not sure that 15 to 20 points is a "tick" above average, nor am I trying to make an argument for Tejada batting 2nd
I'm clarifying that a .327 lifetime OBA ins't "crap" just because calling it so helps make whatever point you're trying to make.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: So do you want your #2 hitter to be just a tick above average in OBP? I don't. Now if your overall offense sucks, that's another thing. Thanks to this terrible lineup construction tradition, fans accept (and I don't necessarily say "youse") a #2 hitter that's average, or even crappy, because, you know, what does his crappiness matter if he can sac bunt the leadoff guy over to the next base? Put a crappy hitter in the #2 hole and compound that dumb move by having him intentionally destroying a chance for a big inning, even in the first inning, right before the most potent hitters are due up. Not sure that 15 to 20 points is a "tick" above average, nor am I trying to make an argument for Tejada batting 2nd I'm clarifying that a .327 lifetime OBA ins't "crap" just because calling it so helps make whatever point you're trying to make.

I think you're simplifying things. A .327 OBP might not be "crappy" when compared against everybody else's OBP, including every pitcher, your Rey Ordonez's and the fringe guys that don't stick around long enough to register in most fan's memories two or three years down the line. But it's a crappy OBP for the #2 hitter on the team I'm rotting for.

[Edgy MD]

Rotting for the Mets. That's hardcore.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Rotting for the Mets. That's hardcore.

I caught that typo before I submitted my post. Analyze away.

[Frayed Knot]

Even #2 hitters aren't OBA-ing .327 these days (.322 this year to date). You have to remember that we're not in 1999 anymore Toto when entire leagues were north of .330

As for the larger point, bunting Tejada was being discussed as to the specific case of him attempting to SacB Muffy to 3rd in the 8th inning of a tie game.
Argue for or against that if you care to, but no one here is advocating adopting the lineup construction and/or offensive strategy of the 1965 Dodgers.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Great. You're disagreeing with me on this and it's all resting on that Tejada is OBP'ing five one-thousandths of a point higher than league average for a #2 hitter. This disagreement has been going on for two hours and you probably didn't even know that number until 45 seconds before your last post.

This isn't as big a deal as either of us are making it out to be because Wright's out, Wright should be back soon, and yesterday's was a C lineup, even accounting for the drop off in quality from all of the current injuries. But if Tejada truly belongs in the #2 slot, then this team has another problem.

Being average does not get you into the post-season. And if forced to carry some average hitters, I'd prefer that they be bottom of the order hitters.

[Zvon]

Skimming through this game.

That was not a bad pitch to Stanton. I keep on hearing that the pitch drifted over the plate. Drifted back in off the corner but was still not a phat pitch to do anything decent with, especially if you try and pull it. He pulled that thru the hole at short, which is just some nice hitting.



Just saw Lags base clearing triBOOM. Niiice. I'm interested in seeing that bunt play.

The earlier comment here about Carlyle being late to cover...Gary picked up on it. Yes, they could have had him if Carlyle busted it like Reck did.

Keith didn't fault Murphy for only jogging around the bases on the dropped fly. I kinda do. Just one gear higher & he is rounding third when it's dropped. So I say shame on you, Muffy.