Race and Reggie

[Edgy MD]

Tabloid fodder out there seems to have Reggie Jackson releasing a new "tell all" memoir in which he repeats his tired saw that the Mets didn't draft him because they couldn't handle his blackness (or his dating a Mexican woman). Bobby Winkles, who I cited in the Doc Ellis thread and is apparently alive at the current time, is his source.

Maybe a good idea to track down Winkles and get to the bottom of it.

History demands more, Reg.

[Edgy MD]

�I think about that sometimes. I would�ve been coming up just as that team was finally improving. They had all those great arms: Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Jon Matlack, Nolan Ryan, Tug McGraw. Oh boy!�

Because, somehow, trying to get money out of the Mets would have somehow worked out better than it did with the A's?

Dude won five World Series in seven years and wonders wistfully what would have happened if he got a better break and became a Met?

I'm thinking it's got to be his third memoir.

[stevejrogers]

Seems like this keeps getting recycled...

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/800/f1_t864.shtml&sa=U&ei=QPRSUt_4NKvY7AaJqIGIDg&ved=0CA0QFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHuOuYM_JdD3I3_SXj2AHInsSb_gw

Dude won five World Series in seven years and wonders wistfully what would have happened if he got a better break and became a Met?

Buyers remorse about getting in bed with the nutjobs in the Bronx?

[Edgy MD]

Oh, yeah, certainly recycled. Big part of my point. Sorry to be part of the cycle.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Thanks for the old link, Rogers.

The other stuff I came up with since that old thread were stories of Casey making a personal scouting visit to see Chilcott play in high school while the Mets were visiting the West Coast. I do believe Casey missed managing a game to make the trip (also he and Chilcott were from the same neck of the woods). I get the impression that Casey wasn't the head decisionmaker, but that his thumbs-up was important to the organization then and inasmuch as the writers knew he made the trip, helped to sell the decision to select Chilcott.

But again, it said nothing over how much they preferred him to Jackson, or whatever. There may have been some concerns over Jackson's character for all we know.

[Frayed Knot]

Baseball America ran a story, maybe ten years back, about HS catchers and the draft during the time Joe Mauer was working his way through the minors.
Anyway, in it there was the inevitable sidebar article on Chilcott. The story they told was that the Mets went into that draft divided on the Chilcott/Jackson question before eventually settling on Chilcott. Whitey Herzog, who was then the NYM personnel director (or whatever the specific title was), supposedly went around to his (then 19) counterparts after the draft to ask who they would have gone with if they had the #1 overall pick. The supposed result of this informal poll was 10-9 in favor of Reggie, meaning it was a flat 10-10 tie with the Met vote thrown in.*

Bottom line being:
- this story is neither new nor is there anything new here to confirm it
- the idea that the Chicott pick was a known mistake all along is revisionist history which largely became gospel to some based on the result
- that the "snub" was racism based on the Mexican girlfriend and/or Jackson's "uppity" (in the parlance of the time) attitude, while certainly possible, still appears to have Reggie as its only source
- ASU coach Bobby Winkles is still alive but I've never heard whether he backs the story or not including in Reggie's earlier bio where co-writer (read: writer) Mike Lupica was more interested in cashing in on the story of the moment then he was in being an actual journalist and so just tossed all that aside and never bothered to confirm the story with the then still very active Winkles.
- And if Winkles DID tell this to Reggie who told it to Winkles? Or did he just infer it from sketchy information himself?
- Reggie is a known bullshitter and incessant self-promoter who would probably claim to have solved the Lindbergh baby kidnapping if he could just believably alter those damned dates on his birth certificate.




* and now I see that I told that same story in the linked piece

[Edgy MD]

Which still leaves us with somebody needing to call Winkles while he's still available. I vote for MetsGuy, who has press credibility.

Reggie takes on the Casey angle:

He blamed the Mets� infamous draft-day decision on Bob Scheffing, the team�s director of player development. According to Jackson, he was also the guy who would later trade Nolan Ryan. But Scheffing tried to pass the blame on to Casey Stengel, who was scouting for the team at the time. �I know I never saw Casey Stengel when I was being scouted,� writes Jackson. �And how could you be in a ballpark and not know if Casey Stengel was there?�

I know it's all about you, Reggie, but Casey being in on the decision doesn't mean he scouted you.

Bob Scheffing, before he joined the Klan with the Mets, managed the 1961 Tigers to 101 games.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Edgy MD wrote: Bob Scheffing, before he joined the Klan with the Mets, managed the 1961 Tigers to 101 games.

Actually, it looks like he managed all of them. 101 wins and still 8 games back and out of the World Series. Damn.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

By the way, someone should write some fan-fiction about what happens to the Mets in an alternative universe in which Johnny Murphy and Gil Hodges each live to a ripe old age.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Unless you extend Joan Payson's life as well, I suspect that Gil gets fired by M. Donald Grant, or quits in frustration to go to another team, somewhere around 1977.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Unless you extend Joan Payson's life as well, I suspect that Gil gets fired by M. Donald Grant, or quits in frustration to go to another team, somewhere around 1977.

Well that's five more years to build a juggernaut at least. Or not, depending on the whims of the author of this fiction.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Scheffing was in the GM chair mainly because Devine left suddenly -- then Murphy died suddenly, then Whitey wasn't asked (or wasn't around, I forget the timing). It is a job he did not want, or do very effectively. HIS replacement was Joe McDonald who'd been hanging around the Mets as a glorified intern initially. This degradation of management talent is a really telling indicator of the Mets fortunes under the Payson Reign.

IIRC, they brought Scheffing out of retirement just to do scouting initially and eventually he found himself absorbing more and more and the org had less and less internally.

[Edgy MD]

"Trust me, Brother, there are worse things to be than a glorified intern sitting in the
right place when the big job came open."

[dinosaur jesus]

Chilcott could play. He got hurt when he was 18, but he was as good a hitter as his teammate Ken Singleton, and two years younger. It's awfully unlikely he would have been near as good as Reggie Jackson, but he wasn't a joke.

[Edgy MD]

HOLY SHIT! Ken Singleton! There's the guy right there that, while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention, throws a big bucket o' cold water on it.

Wifey Watch Machine, do your thing.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy MD wrote: HOLY SHIT! Ken Singleton! There's the guy right there that, while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention, throws a big bucket o' cold water on it. Wifey Watch Machine, do your thing.

Not so fast! Met her as an Oriole.

http://www.thebeaconnewspaper.com/select-stories/features/she-shares-inspiration-online

[Edgy MD]

while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention

[Frayed Knot]

Y'know, Reggie is sounding more and more like ARod - or maybe the other way around seeing as how Reggie cam first and Rodriguez has admitted going to Jackson for advice (or is it Reggie bragging about how he's Alex's mentor? ... I can never keep these things straight).'

But think about it: the whole 'I really wanted to play with this team' ... but I also wanted to play with that team' ... and how good would it have been if I wound up with those guys?', yadda, yadda. It's no different then Arod three decades later claiming he really wanted to be a Met ... except that he said the same thing about the Braves (until they wouldn't give him a no-trade) ... and then he loved working out the trade to the Yanx, but only after his attempts to work it out with Boston didn't work out when he was trying to get away from the deal he originally signed with Texas which was, at the time, the place he said he wanted to be all along. And he loved being a Yank until he opted out at the first possible moment (and in the middle of a WS game).

It's the whole neediness despite all the stardom, fame, and money. They both want and wanted all that stuff so much that only later on does it occur to them that they want to be loved by everyone also.

[MFS62]

Scheffing had been a major league catcher for 8 years.
Pure speculation on my part, but maybe that's what tilted his recommendation toward Chilcott.

Later

[Zvon]

He would'a looked good in a Met uniform. But then again who wouldn't?

[G-Fafif]

During Reggie's first year in New York, the MFYs were home on an off day so Jackson spent his evening at Shea Stadium causing a mild stir watching the Mets beat the Cardinals. The attraction, he said, was his Arizona State landsman Lenny Randle, but I recall a quote coming out of his surprise appearance that sure he would've liked to have been a Met, but they didn't pursue him, or something like that.

Free agent Oriole Reggie Jackson, 1976, was reincarnated as disgruntled Dodger Mike Piazza, 1998, and at least we went for it the next time someone of that gaudy ilk came around. (Not that gaudy ilk has always been avoided or always worked out -- I'm thinking with hindsight here.)

Recall an article in (I think) the Daily News in the last 15 or so years that caught up with Chilcott and emphasized, much as Dino said, he was very much a top prospect for whom fate had other plans. Then again, I just found this wire story from 1966 and shuddered:

The Mets, always full of surprises, pulled another one yesterday when they selected 17-year-old catcher Steve Chilcott of Lancaster, Calif., as the No. 1 pick in major league baseball's annual draft. The Mets, who earned the right to select first because of their low standing in the majors last season, were expected to go for classy outfielder Reggie Jackson of Arizona State, but chose Chilcott, who batted .500 for his high school team last year.

"Batted .500 for his high school team" sounds very damning knowing what we know 47 years later, as if to say, "His high school team played Wiffle Ball only."

Casey (who had a thing for catchers, whether they were his man Mr. Berra or the first pick in a different kind of draft, Hobie Landrith) did like him some Chilcott after the fact, but nothing contemporary indicates he did or didn't want Jackson.

[Edgy MD]

Zvon wrote: He would'a looked good in a Met uniform. But then again who wouldn't?

And what uniform would he have looked bad in?

OK, the Angels.

[Edgy MD]

G-Fafif wrote: Casey (who had a thing for catchers, whether they were his man Mr. Berra or the first pick in a different kind of draft, Hobie Landrith) did like him some Chilcott after the fact, but nothing contemporary indicates he did or didn't want Jackson.

Some nice American Legion ball action in that clipping too.

[Frayed Knot]

The Mets, always full of surprises, ...

You wonder what aspect of the Mets the "always full of surprises" line was aimed at?
The draft? -- There had been all of ONE draft up to that point so it wasn't like there was an established track record of surprise picks.
Their standings? -- No, they were consistently UNsurprising in their finishes from 1962-66


The part about it being just the 2nd draft ever probably factored into things as well. College baseball at the time was a lesser deal than it is today and I suspect there was more of a thought that the REAL good players were found in HS where you could get them early and mold them properly. Had that choice happened a bit later on I think more of the insider opinion would have swung towards Jackson as both the safer pick and one much more likely to contribute than a HS catcher.
Of course the Twins were told the same thing years later when they were accused of being both cheap and overly pr-conscious when they opted for the local kid Mauer rather than the "correct" #1 overall choice of Mark Prior.

[G-Fafif]

The Mets had defied convention enough from 1962 to 1965 that "surprising" was probably the default setting for anything remotely unusual that happened around them.

Note Murakami's music. Eat it, Rivera.

[Zvon]

If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Zvon wrote: If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub.

I think an honest analysis would suggest the Rusty Staub trade wasn't a very good one.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I remember reading a magazine article from 1969 featuring Reggie Jackson. 1969 was Reggie's breakout superstar season. Reggie seemed very humble with his relatively new fame and wanted to deflect the attention he was attracting towards Cleon Jones, who, said Reggie, was baseball's real new black superstar.

[G-Fafif]

As Murakami, with a spring in his gait and a wad of chewing gum in his mouth, strode toward the Giant dugout, Met fans stood up and cheered. Organist Jane Jarvis got into the swing of things, playing "The Japanese Sandman".

tef8RQF3XTU

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Zvon wrote: If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub. I think an honest analysis would suggest the Rusty Staub trade wasn't a very good one.

I wouldn't have minded an outfield of Reggie, Singleton and perhaps Otis. Who would complain about that?