He says it now, but will he mean it later?

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceetar wrote: You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend. Oh, that's weak. Why don't we retire Andy Pettitte's number while we're at it? He was good and played baseball.

Not a Mets legend.

There aren't a lot of them, but when you get all-time greats that play their best years and the most years for your club?

Or what? It's all about championships? That's awfully shallow no? It certainly wasn't his fault they didn't win one.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Retire Krane's ... he played for them for like 50 years!

[Gwreck]

Vic Sage wrote: Beltran had 3 great years for the Mets, and 1 crappy one, and 3 partial seasons (2 interrupted by injury, 1 by trade). By that standard lets retire Olerud's number too. He had 3 great years, too.

Olerud did have 3 good seasons. Beltran had three outstanding seasons. Comparing those three years, Beltran was more than 3 WAR better.

How about McReynolds? Cliff Floyd? Robin Ventura? Rusty Staub? There have been many good players who passed thru NY and put up 3,4,5 good-to-excellent seasons.

None of those players could hold a candle to Beltran. Seriously?

That he's probably the best CFer we ever had says more about the history of Met CFers than it does about Beltran.

Rubbish. Total and complete rubbish. Beltran is one of the best centerfielders to ever play baseball. Mays, Cobb, Griffey, Speaker, Mantle, Dimaggio...and then Beltran, probably.

Yes, maybe he's a HOFer... i hope that for him -- but he holds absolutely no place in my heart, except as the avatar of a team that didn't make it over the hump. He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion.

I don't even know how to respond to this other than to say it's total nonsense.

[Gwreck]

Ceetar wrote: And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game.

Just remember - those who turned up to honor Beltran upon his return to New York got a no-hitter as a bonus.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: Ceetar wrote: And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game. Just remember - those who turned up to honor Beltran upon his return to New York got a no-hitter as a bonus.

good point.

[dgwphotography]

I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired.

[Frayed Knot]

dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired.

And even then, for me, honorees need to have spent the majority of their careers as a Met (and preferably a large majority) - so no Carter, no Mays, no Keith (he falls short on both standards) and it would be fine with me if they put #31 back in circulation as well.

[Edgy MD]

Well, spending the majority of your career with a team generally means you get the hat-on-the-plaque thing. If it's a well-travelled guy, the hat usually goes to the team he spent the plurality with. So there's a distinction, but it's not vast.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this:



Seriously, his career isn't defined so much by his employers, but by who he chose to employ him.

[Ceetar]

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this: Seriously, his career isn't defined so much by his employers, but by who he chose to employ him.

who he formally chose to employ him anyway.

[Gwreck]

dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired.

Exactly, exactly. At the risk of sounding heartless, it's time to put #8 back in circulation.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Vic Sage wrote: He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement.

You're entitled to your usually-on-point opinion, Vic, but... come on, man. "Disinterest?" For a guy who played his best years for us with degenerating-to-nonexistent knee cartilage? Come on, man.

I'm not sure I'd wave the flag for 15 on the wall, but I sure as hell wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Edgy MD]

If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high.

Associating the failure of a team to win a championship with the lack of effort by particular players is retrofit analysis.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high. .

And Carlos would be scaling to to rob a home run.

[Centerfield]

Gwreck wrote: dgwphotography wrote: I think this is one thing the Mets get right. Enshrine players of the Koosman, Harrelson, Franco level in the Mets Hall of Fame. Only those enshrined in Cooperstown as a Met get their number retired. Exactly, exactly. At the risk of sounding heartless, it's time to put #8 back in circulation.

And there, you have two examples of why it (meaning which team on the plaque) matters. It may be arbitrary, but such is the nature of fandom.

[Centerfield]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Vic Sage wrote: He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. You're entitled to your usually-on-point opinion, Vic, but... come on, man. "Disinterest?" For a guy who played his best years for us with degenerating-to-nonexistent knee cartilage? Come on, man. I'm not sure I'd wave the flag for 15 on the wall, but I sure as hell wouldn't have a problem with it.

He also played with a broken face. I don't see the disinterest at all.

[metsmarathon]

all i'll say about beltran is, the man goes out there, breaks another mans face with his own face, forcing that other man to miss hte remainder of a season, and all he misses is like two days?

and that man is accused of not trying, of not caring?

fuck that.

[metsmarathon]

Really thinking about Beltran, his HOF cap logo should be this:

is the B for Blame?

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: If I put up a photo essay of Carlos Beltran making an effort, the page would be about 12 feet high. . And Carlos would be scaling to to rob a home run.

I think Ceetar's crush on Beltran might top Edgy's crush on Recker (but not mine).

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield wrote: And there, you have two examples of why it (meaning which team on the plaque) matters. It may be arbitrary, but such is the nature of fandom.

It matters only if one views the hat on the plaque as the final definition of being, or not being, a Met. I simply don't see it as an either/or thing.
We can (and have ... and currently are ... and probably will again in the future) argue over which numbers should be retired. I just don't like the idea of tying it all to the plaque.

[Centerfield]

I think I'm being unclear on my point(s). They are as follows:

1. Beltran is and was a terrific player. He is one of the greatest of all time, a borderline Hall of Famer, and he was great when he was here with the Mets. I'm disappointed he isn't appreciated more than he is. I get that some saw him as disinterested. I didn't see that at all. If anything, I saw a guy who was perhaps too sensitive to criticism. But it definitely seemed to me that he cared.

2. I am a fan of Beltran. Therefore, I hope he gets elected to the Hall of Fame. I hope when he gets elected his plaque bears the logo of the Mets, a team of which I am also a fan. Because of that, the topic of this thread matters to me. To some, the team that his plaque bears is criteria used to determine whether or not his number is retired by the Mets, an additional honor. So for those guys, the topic of this thread matters even more.

3. I agree that the plaque shouldn't be a brightline rule as to whether a number should be retired or not. I'm not sure I have a concrete rule for this. By it's nature, it's a matter of opinion. I don't know that I would retire Beltran's number. Even if his HOF plaque had a Mets logo. As much as I love Beltran, I am leaning toward no.

However, I do think that Piazza's should be retired. And to illustrate that I don't think the HOF thing should go hand-in-hand with the number-retirement, I thought it would have been a great, GREAT move for the Mets to announce that they were retiring his number immediately after he fell short of the vote. I think it would have been a great show of support for a Mets great and a giant fuck you to the BBWA.

If the stars were to align, and through some glitch in the system, I ended up as the owner of the Mets, I would first remove the orange dot from the hats, but my second move would be to announce Piazza's number would be retired. Then at the ceremony, I would introduce Piazza as follows:

"Hey baseball writers, fuck you. That's right, fuck you. This is what I think of your voting: (I would then pull out a copy of the results, place it in front of me and mimic coitus.) This is the greatest hitting catcher of all time. He defined the Mets for nearly a decade. Brought them to the post-season twice, and a World Series. He also hit the single most important home run in New York history. Without him those teams would not have finished over .500 once. So fuck you baseball writers (mimic coitus again). We know a Hall of Famer when we see one. Congratulations Mike." (Then I would pull up my pants and go sit down).

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: However, I do think that Piazza's should be retired. And to illustrate that I don't think the HOF thing should go hand-in-hand with the number-retirement, I thought it would have been a great, GREAT move for the Mets to announce that they were retiring his number immediately after he fell short of the vote. I think it would have been a great show of support for a Mets great and a giant fuck you to the BBWA.

I think doing so at the end of the year is a similar show of support. The Mets had their hands full with All-Star Festivities, and I certainly would've made more of the MHOF induction thing as part of it, but they didn't send out the press release until I was literally on my way to the Futures game, and that makes it sound to me like they didn't talk with Piazza about it until he showed up for the festivities. I think having their hands full with jumping through hoops for MLB sorta put the Piazza thing on the back burner a little bit in a "worry about it in the second half" way.

But they haven't reissued 31 and they certainly induct guys without retiring numbers, and it's different groups that decide, so I think it's going to retired as part of this ceremony.

[Edgy MD]

They had a Mike Piazza Day a month or so after he broke the home run record for catchers. Having another to induct him into the MHoF, and another to retire his number spreads it out like jelly. A cynical way to pack more people into the most cynical ballpark in the Major Leagues, methinks.

[Vic Sage]

He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement.

as long as we're clearing things up, i've taken a bit of shit for this statement which none of you seem to have understood. I didn't say, assert or even imply that Beltran was disinterested or didn't give maximum effort, as a factual matter. I said that MY OWN PERSONAL AESTHETIC JUDGMENT of his easy effortless style of play was that it "smacked of (i.e., appeared to be, seemed like) disinterest and lack of passion", and projected an overall sense of passivity to his game which didn't APPEAL to me on an aesthetic basis. And that is not "retrofitted analysis", its an emotional reaction to his style of play that i came to at the time. I simply use the Called Strike 3 as metaphor for his irritating passivity, not as specific causation of anything. It's just a symbol, at least for me.

You all want to point to specific reasons why you think my emotional response to his game is "wrong", so go right ahead. I haven't disputed it or debated it, since I was making no factual assertions, just expressing my feelings about the aesthetics i prefer to see in baseball, and so are not a subject of debate anymore than anyone else's feelings are. That i don't appreciate a player with the same fervor as you doesn't make my feelings "wrong".

But returning to the issue at hand...

Yes, Beltran played hurt and played very well in NY -- HOF well -- for 3 years (after a fairly crappy 1st year), until the injuries cost him 1/2 of each of the next 2 seasons, and we traded him in the middle of the following one. So we're talking about putting a guy on our wall who played 3. Great. Seasons. I'd add that he only led us to one (unsuccessful) post season during his 7-year Mets career, but that would be misleading. He never led that team at all, which was well noted at the time. Look, if he gets to go to the HOF, it won't be a controversial decision, and good for him. And if his plaque portrays him with a Mets cap, i could care less one way or the other. But if i have to stare at #15 on the wall every time i go to the park, or watch on tv, I will have to close my eyes, lay back and think of Grote.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Edgy MD wrote: They had a Mike Piazza Day a month or so after he broke the home run record for catchers. Having another to induct him into the MHoF, and another to retire his number spreads it out like jelly. A cynical way to pack more people into the most cynical ballpark in the Major Leagues, methinks.

I'm holding lots of days to honor Mike
Makes for good advertising
I gotta handle fans just right
You know what I mean
The stadium has lots of restaurants
Still the place is quite empty
His 31 is still in doubt
Is it our next honoree?

Let�s get cynical, cynical
I wanna get cynical, let�s get into cynical
Let me hear your wallet talk, your wallet talk
Let me hear your wallet talk

[Ceetar]

Do we not count half seasons? Only full seasons in which you contribute count?

No one carries a team to the postseason by himself, but Beltran's superhuman effort in them almost carried them to the World Series. And the drop off in competitiveness with his half seasons should certainly be noted as well.

[Frayed Knot]

Half-seasons count.
In fact they count just about half as much as full seasons.

[Vic Sage]

As John Sickels said in a recent column about our catcher of the future, d'Arnaud: "Staying healthy is a tool (or a skill); either way it is a factor, especially for a player in a demanding defensive position."
So yes, of course Beltran gets credit for the half seasons, but he also shares the responsibility (with god, the fates, his parents, and/or medical science) for all the games he missed, too.

As for those 1/2 seasons, 1 of them sucked, the other 2 were excellent, although the last one was in RF, not CF, since he had no knees left. In any event, we went nowhere with or without him, except in his near-MVP year of 06. Was our lack of post-season success his fault? Were the collapses of `07 and `08 his fault? Of course not. But he was an integral part of those heartbreaking teams that faded twice in late and close races with the Phils after falling to the Cards in 06. That's not a career you write songs about. That's not Paul Bunyan type stuff. That's a great player passing thru town on his way to Cooperstown, putting up some noteworthy numbers for a few years, and yet his signature moment was watching a curve ball for strike 3, and his lasting contribution to the franchise may be that he netted us Zach Wheeler.

And i should get all choked up about this guy, so much that i want his number emblazoned on the stadium wall?
Yeah, no thanks.

[metirish]

But Vic, perhaps Beltran would like to receive a golden shower from you...

[Centerfield]

Typical Vic. Always talking about his FEELINGS.