RA. Dickey Trade Rumors Deserve Their Own Thread

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: I've heard it said top shelf college baseball is close to AA competition wise. If true Harvey has been right on target. I dont think thats true at all. While there may be some players capable of playing in AA, the overall level of competition is probably akin to the lowest levels of the US minors or the equivalent of the NY-Penn league. there will be a wider variety of talent though than there is at any given minor league level with the college players ranging from guys who are ready for AA to guys who wouldnt make hte first cut in minor league spring training camps.

The overall level of college ball is more akin to the lower levels of the minors, but he did say the "top shelf" is close to AA competition and that's probably pretty accurate. Guys like Harvey who were top-10 picks from major programs generally need little but refresher courses before tackling AA. Harvey himself started in high-A but spent less than a half-season there and even that was mostly due to not pitching competitively since his draft the previous June.

[Edgy MD]

The Flushing Royals just signed David Wright for eight years and something like $140 million. There's that.

[bmfc1]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: The Mets have become the Flushing Royals.

And that's what makes this so painful. No question that Alderson got back a nice return (they now have new names at the top of their "Best Prospects" list http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/12/16/3775304/new-york-mets-top-20-prospects-for-2013) but it shouldn't happen in New York. The Mets had the batting average champion and a fan favorite and let him walk away. The Mets had the Cy Young win and a fan favorite and traded him. It's not about what they got, it's about the fact that they made the trade in the first place.

This happened because of friendships: Fred Wilpon invested with his childhood friend Bernie Madoff and Madoff was a criminal. Fred Wilpon and Bud Selig are friends so Selig loaned him money to keep him financially afloat rather than force him to sell as he did to Frank McCourt. Because of these friendships, we won't have the opportunity to see R.A. Dickey take the mound at Citi Field on Opening Day and give him a prolonged standing ovation. And then we won't see R.A. look around and soak up that ovation and appreciate it in a way that few athletes can.

Maybe this will work out and the trade will be the turning point of future Mets success. We don't know but I do know that I'm mad that this had to happen.

[G-Fafif]

Tyler Kepner, the anti-Davidoff in this piece.

The title of R. A. Dickey�s memoir is �Wherever I Wind Up,� a nod to his dancing knuckleball and itinerant pitching career. He wrote the book before he won the National League Cy Young Award this year, a feat that should have answered the question of where his journey would lead. Leave it to the Mets to botch something easy, like Luis Castillo dropping a pop-up with two outs in the ninth. When the best pitcher in the National League wants to stay with you for three more years, at a steep discount, you let him stay. Why is this so complicated? By trading Dickey to the Toronto Blue Jays, pending the negotiation of a contract extension, the Mets essentially told their fans that they do not expect to contend for the next three years. The Mets have already staggered through four consecutive losing seasons, three shy of the franchise record. Now the wait to be relevant drags on. Say this for General Manager Sandy Alderson: he has guts and conviction. When Alderson came to the Mets in October 2010, with Commissioner Bud Selig�s encouragement, he was charged with reviving a team bleeding cash and saddled with overpaid, decaying players. He was bound not by sentiment, only by a duty to make the team better for the future. Along the way, Alderson got a gift in Dickey, a holdover from his predecessor, Omar Minaya. Alderson astutely signed Dickey to a two-year, $7.5 million contract, with a $5 million club option for 2013. Dickey, after winning the Cy Young, asked for two more years and $26 million, a bargain in the current market. The Mets traded him instead. The haul looks impressive. Catcher Travis d�Arnaud, 23, is considered the Blue Jays� top prospect, ranked 17th in the sport before last season by Baseball America. Pitcher Noah Syndergaard, 20, struck out 122 batters in 1032/3 innings, allowing just 3 home runs, in the Class A Midwest League last season. But Dickey has proved himself for three seasons, with a 2.95 earned run average as a Met, and as a knuckleballer, he should be viable for at least three more, even at age 38. If the Mets had any plans to contend in that window, a No. 1 starter would be a major asset. Maybe they have aces in waiting, with Matt Harvey and Zack Wheeler, the right-hander acquired from San Francisco for Carlos Beltran in 2011. Maybe Jon Niese will be their Andy Pettitte and Johan Santana can hold up for a full season. In Dickey, at least, they knew what they were getting. But that, incredibly, could be part of the problem. The New York Post reported last week that the Mets had concerns about Dickey�s off-the-field endeavors, and that the front office was displeased that Dickey criticized the team at its holiday party on Tuesday. That day, Dickey said he had been more than fair with his contract proposal, adding that without an extension, he would probably not return in 2014. �When people say, �It�s business, it�s not personal,� that just means it�s not personal for them,� he said. �It can be personal for me.� What, exactly, did the Mets expect Dickey to say? They knew reporters would ask about his contract status. They knew, presumably, that he was not happy with the team�s offer, and they know he is extremely candid when speaking in public. Yet they invited him anyway. Didn�t that invitation set up Dickey to say something the team might not like? Whether he was speaking from the heart or trying to create leverage, the Mets should have known better. To act offended is na�ve and absurd, and to malign Dickey for his off-field interests is worse. This is a pitcher who went 20-6 for a team that was 74-88, becoming the first Met to win the Cy Young Award since 1985. He was a beacon on a dreary team, and he has earned the right to be trusted that he will be prepared for the season. To the Mets, apparently, it is fine for David Wright, their new $138 million player, to visit David Letterman and Jon Stewart, as he has done in the past. Yet when Dickey appears on the same shows, as he has this off-season, he�s full of himself. Please. Dickey is unfailingly polite and respectful, the way we wish all players would be. His compelling back story, and willingness to share it, broadened the Mets� appeal. He has peeled off painful wounds from his past in an effort to help others deal with child sexual abuse, appearing on the cover of the latest Sports Illustrated in an article about it. Yet this is the man the Mets chose to malign. Trading him might make sense, if the prospects help the Mets start winning again, someday. Smearing him in the process was utterly classless. For all he gave the Mets, on the field and off, Dickey deserved better.

[Ceetar]

nah, it's just like Davidoff's piece, in that it's wildly speculative. This is akin to all those screaming debate shows, he's taking the opposite viewpoint just because.

The only information I've been able to find is that the post reported that some unnamed anonymous person (And I bet in an organization the size of the Mets you can find one person to find something less positive on any other employee) said the Mets are concerned about the off the field distractions and an allusion to them being "not happy" (that's it, DAMNING! not happy? how cruel!) about his comments at the holiday party. Pretty much everything else on both sides was negotiation stuff.

In fact, the Mets still thought SO MUCH of Dickey that they singled him out to be one of two current players to be part of the holiday party. Sure, the two departments might not actually talk to each other, but why is no one writing how much the Mets loved Dickey that even as they leveraged him for the future, they wanted him to be part of their holiday party?

The Mets treated R.A. Dickey just fine (outside of Jerry Manuel who's no longer here) in my eyes, and I'm tired of the witch hunts just because the Wilpons are easy targets and disliked. This is the same crap the media pulled with the Walter Reed stuff, and it's disgraceful. It's things like this which is why I have so very little respect for the traditional media types.

[Edgy MD]

Leave it to the Mets to botch something easy, like Luis Castillo dropping a pop-up with two outs in the ninth. When the best pitcher in the National League wants to stay with you for three more years, at a steep discount, you let him stay. Why is this so complicated?

It's always been complicated.

[ashie62]

Ceetar wrote: nah, it's just like Davidoff's piece, in that it's wildly speculative. This is akin to all those screaming debate shows, he's taking the opposite viewpoint just because. The only information I've been able to find is that the post reported that some unnamed anonymous person (And I bet in an organization the size of the Mets you can find one person to find something less positive on any other employee) said the Mets are concerned about the off the field distractions and an allusion to them being "not happy" (that's it, DAMNING! not happy? how cruel!) about his comments at the holiday party. Pretty much everything else on both sides was negotiation stuff. In fact, the Mets still thought SO MUCH of Dickey that they singled him out to be one of two current players to be part of the holiday party. Sure, the two departments might not actually talk to each other, but why is no one writing how much the Mets loved Dickey that even as they leveraged him for the future, they wanted him to be part of their holiday party? The Mets treated R.A. Dickey just fine (outside of Jerry Manuel who's no longer here) in my eyes, and I'm tired of the witch hunts just because the Wilpons are easy targets and disliked. This is the same crap the media pulled with the Walter Reed stuff, and it's disgraceful. It's things like this which is why I have so very little respect for the traditional media types.

I can't distinguish media types anymore.

[Edgy MD]

By trading Dickey to the Toronto Blue Jays, pending the negotiation of a contract extension, the Mets essentially told their fans that they do not expect to contend for the next three years.

These numbers always seem so arbitrary. Three? We really just mailed in a concession speech for three years?

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: By trading Dickey to the Toronto Blue Jays, pending the negotiation of a contract extension, the Mets essentially told their fans that they do not expect to contend for the next three years. These numbers always seem so arbitrary. Three? We really just mailed in a concession speech for three years?

I think because that as the rumored length of his contract+extension, so clearly the Mets don't see him as part of "The next contending team"

of course, any message to the fans ultimately happens with the team that goes north in April. It's not like Alderson is now going to take the rest of the offseason vacation.

[Edgy MD]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: By trading Dickey to the Toronto Blue Jays, pending the negotiation of a contract extension, the Mets essentially told their fans that they do not expect to contend for the next three years. These numbers always seem so arbitrary. Three? We really just mailed in a concession speech for three years? I think because that as the rumored length of his contract+extension, so clearly the Mets don't see him as part of "The next contending team"

I think there's nothing clear at all about that, and that's some ridiculously simplistic logic.

[metsmarathon]

pfft. we already conceded the next 6 years when we didnt bring back reyes.

wait. then we recommitted when we kept wright for 8 years.

and now i guess the first 3 of those are off again?

i'm so confused.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: By trading Dickey to the Toronto Blue Jays, pending the negotiation of a contract extension, the Mets essentially told their fans that they do not expect to contend for the next three years. These numbers always seem so arbitrary. Three? We really just mailed in a concession speech for three years? I think because that as the rumored length of his contract+extension, so clearly the Mets don't see him as part of "The next contending team" I think there's nothing clear at all about that, and that's some ridiculously simplistic logic.

I didn't say it wasn't simplistic, just that it probably wasn't arbitrary.

[G-Fafif]

YSUcFx0ZJGs

Be the Jays!
Be the Jays!
Move up north and
Be the Jays!
Import Jose
Sign R.A.
They can have Thole
That much I'll say!

Because ex-Mets populate Ontario
Their tax bills grow high
As we groom d'Arnaud

Up there, down here
We will somehow get along
The Jays have my two fav'rite Mets
But not our song!

[Gwreck]

metsmarathon wrote: pfft. we already conceded the next 6 years when we didnt bring back reyes.

We conceded 2012. Not 6 years.*

wait. then we recommitted when we kept wright for 8 years. and now i guess the first 3 of those are off again?

This is the confusing part. Beltran was traded for a key prospect; Reyes was allowed to walk, Dickey traded for a key prospect(s). Jason Bay was released. These are the steps a team makes when trying a rebuild.

Yes, Wright figures to remain productive for several years of his contract beyond the first one but a true rebuild would have dictated trading him either 1. Prior to the 2012 season or 2. Prior to signing the extension.


*Yet, at least. I suppose the best possible hope is that we haven't conceded 2014 yet.

[Ceetar]

clearly the offseason is not over yet, so we'll see, but I'm interested to see how the outfield shakes out..I mean, if they're not going to do anything, why release Bay that early, unless it was solely for the ability to defer the money from this year, and if they're not going to spend said money, are they really that broke? (and by really that broke I mean do they need to salvage every last penny the Mets make on various agreements to pay off loans on things like Citi Field?)

[Edgy MD]

A true rebuild would have meant selling the ballpark and starting over there, also.

I have no problem with a rebuild that includes David Wright. I don't think that undermines any philosophical commitment.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: A true rebuild would have meant selling the ballpark and starting over there, also. I have no problem with a rebuild that includes David Wright. I don't think that undermines any philosophical commitment.

Nah, the ballpark's part of the solution, not the problem.

Conceptually, fine. We're broke, etc. How long does rebuilding take though? And when can we reasonably expect the offseason moves Alderson makes are more made for the immediate than the future?

I guess Wright is the 'one toy' we get to keep while we're rebuilding.

[Frayed Knot]

Toronto Star says the Jays & RA have reached an agreement on a two-year ($25mil) extension.
All that remains now is for physicals to be passed and throw-ins to be announced.

[Ceetar]

physicals passed. We'll find out the other two prospects included when they get called up.

[ashie62]

So Dickey goes to Toronto for 25 Million dollars, the 5 million this year and at least 2 decent prospects. I would say both sides did well but...

All that seperated Dickey from remaining a Met was 5 million dollars? Wow...

[Guest The Second Spitter]

Gwreck wrote: This is the confusing part. Beltran was traded for a key prospect; Reyes was allowed to walk, Dickey traded for a key prospect(s). Jason Bay was released. These are the steps a team makes when trying a rebuild. Yes, Wright figures to remain productive for several years of his contract beyond the first one but a true rebuild would have dictated trading him either 1. Prior to the 2012 season or 2. Prior to signing the extension. *Yet, at least. I suppose the best possible hope is that we haven't conceded 2014 yet.

This post highlights the idiocy of not trading Reyes, who would have brought back at least a prospect at the same level as Wheeler, if not better. Things would have looked much rosier for 2013.

[Ceetar]

The Second Spitter wrote: Gwreck wrote: This is the confusing part. Beltran was traded for a key prospect; Reyes was allowed to walk, Dickey traded for a key prospect(s). Jason Bay was released. These are the steps a team makes when trying a rebuild. Yes, Wright figures to remain productive for several years of his contract beyond the first one but a true rebuild would have dictated trading him either 1. Prior to the 2012 season or 2. Prior to signing the extension. *Yet, at least. I suppose the best possible hope is that we haven't conceded 2014 yet. This post highlights the idiocy of not trading Reyes, who would have brought back at least a prospect at the same level as Wheeler, if not better. Things would have looked much rosier for 2013.

I think there is a VERY strong possibility there was no Wheeler offered for Reyes, and that Alderson DID ask around. I think he was probably serious about considering keeping him, especially when it looked like he hamstring might drive down the value a bit. But Alderson, budget or not, seems to set a price and refuse to overpay no matter what. Hope that changes when said player might be an "over the top" player for the team though.

[Gwreck]

Ceetar wrote: I think there is a VERY strong possibility there was no Wheeler offered for Reyes, and that Alderson DID ask around. I think he was probably serious about considering keeping him, especially when it looked like he hamstring might drive down the value a bit.

It is possible that there was no Wheeler-caliber prospect to be had for Reyes.

It is not at all possible that management was serious about keeping Reyes beyond 2012, as so clearly evidenced by their failure to even make an offer.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: Ceetar wrote: I think there is a VERY strong possibility there was no Wheeler offered for Reyes, and that Alderson DID ask around. I think he was probably serious about considering keeping him, especially when it looked like he hamstring might drive down the value a bit. It is possible that there was no Wheeler-caliber prospect to be had for Reyes. It is not at all possible that management was serious about keeping Reyes beyond 2012, as so clearly evidenced by their failure to even make an offer.

yeah...they didn't scribble the numbers down on paper and say "sign here please" but they discussed numbers.

[nymr83]

Didn't Reyes get hurt right around the trading deadline? The Mets may have seen the compensation pick as more valuable than whatever they were offered at the time

[Edgy MD]

The Mets made an offer for Reyes.

[Gwreck]

Am I missing something? My understanding of the circumstances was that the Mets made no formal offer because once Reyes actually hit the open market, the Mets (astutely) realized that Reyes would be getting a deal that was longer and for more money than they wanted to spend.

[Benjamin Grimm]

That's how I remember it too. I think the Mets offered to open negotiations during the summer of 2011, but Jose (or more accurately, his agent) said that they didn't want to talk contract during the season. However, once the season ended, I don't think the Mets ever made an actual offer.

[Ceetar]

Alderson stated that he'd talked to the Reyes camp that weekend and had made clear what the Mets were willing to offer. But when Miami topped it and they hoped they could then get the Mets to drive up their price, Alderson didn't budge. Reyes never reached the point where he wasn't feeling out the market, and the Mets didn't want to arbitrarily bid up the price before he was actually ready to sign. He got a big offer and Alderson decided (or the Wilpons finances did) that it was too much.

It's just negotiations. By officially writing down and creating a paper offer, the Mets create a market and a floor for Reyes. By NOT doing it the Reyes camp telling other teams "The Mets will give us 106" carries a little less meaning.

[Edgy MD]

The difference between a verbal offer and a formal written offer is good fodder for the furious, but it doesn't really mean anything. Reyes' agents asked Alderson how high he was willing to go. Alderson gave him a figure. Rather than say, "That's interesting --- we'd like to see a formal offer," the agents took that figure back to Miami, who topped it. Done.

Is it really so terrible that the Mets didn't come running in at the 11th hour with their lower offer, hammered out and submitted officially on paper? It isn't to me. All that matters is they had their bid, the Marlins had theirs, and the Marlins' bid was higher.