2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[Ceetar]

Fangraphs has Lofton 14th on the WAR/CF list, .9 ahead of Carlos Beltran. (Bernie 35)

[stevejrogers]

It will never happen, but how about the Mets flipping the writers the bird and induct Piazza into their Hall and retire #31 this summer. Hell, do it on the weekend of July 19th, against the Phillies. First home series after the ASG and a week before The Hall's induction weekend (Mets in Washington that weekend).

[Valadius]

Thanks to these morons, next year's ballot gets even more ridiculous.

The following players, to me, should be sure-fire, first-ballot Hall of Famers:

Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Greg Maddux
Frank Thomas

Mike Mussina isn't a first-ballot guy to me but I would still vote for him, if I had room on my ballot. 20th in WAR for pitchers all-time, above the likes of Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan.

A veritable bumper crop of Mets that become eligible next year:

Moises Alou
Armando Benitez
Damion Easley
Paul Lo Duca
Trot Nixon
Hideo Nomo
Jay Payton
Kenny Rogers
Steve Trachsel

And THEN, in 2015, you've got three of the best pitchers of the last 25 years:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz

Along with a couple of mashers and former Mets who will probably be on the ballot a while:

Carlos Delgado
Gary Sheffield

I think it may be time to propose eliminating a limit to the number of players one can select on their ballot.

[seawolf17]

My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.

[stevejrogers]

Valadius wrote: Thanks to these morons, next year's ballot gets even more ridiculous. The following players, to me, should be sure-fire, first-ballot Hall of Famers: Tom Glavine Jeff Kent Greg Maddux Frank Thomas Mike Mussina isn't a first-ballot guy to me but I would still vote for him, if I had room on my ballot. 20th in WAR for pitchers all-time, above the likes of Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, and Nolan Ryan. A veritable bumper crop of Mets that become eligible next year: Moises Alou Armando Benitez Damion Easley Paul Lo Duca Trot Nixon Hideo Nomo Jay Payton Kenny Rogers Steve Trachsel

Kind of a weird mish-mash of the 98-01 and 05-08 eras.

The complete list of next year's potential first timers:

Moises Alou, Armando Benitez, Sean Casey, Jose Cruz Jr., Ray Durham,
Damion Easley, Keith Foulke, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez,
Scott Hatteberg, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Jon Lieber,
Esteban Loaiza, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Matt Morris, Mike Mussina,
Trot Nixon, Hideo Nomo, Jay Payton, Kenny Rogers, Richie Sexson, J.T. Snow, Shannon Stewart,
Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Steve Trachsel, Jose Vidro

How about The Manchurian Brave going in with Piazza next year!

[nymr83]

I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux.

Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony?

[stevejrogers]

Nymr83 wrote: I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux. Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony?

The Vets added three guys from their "Pre-Intergration Era" vote, Deacon White a catcher in the 1880s, Hank O'Day an umpire from the early 1900s and Jacob Rupert, the Yankee owner during the Roaring 20s.

All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays.

Only the Sphinx award winner, Paul Hagen of MLB.com is living. Unless they pick a Buck O'Neil Award (for meritorious service to the game, started in 2008 and first posthumously given to O'Neil, Roland Hemond was the second recipient this past year) winner this year.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

They also said they would honor some guys who never had a proper induction such as Lou Gehrig.

I'm sure the Chassholes will turn that into one last party for the old guard.

[dinosaur jesus]

SteveJRogers wrote: Nymr83 wrote: I really wouldn't mind being up there next summer for Piazza/Maddux. Fuck the writers. Will cooperstown be a ghosttown that weekend now? Does the veterans comittee add anyone? Will there be any kind of ceremony? The Vets added three guys from their "Pre-Intergration Era" vote, Deacon White a catcher in the 1880s, Hank O'Day an umpire from the early 1900s and Jacob Rupert, the Yankee owner during the Roaring 20s. All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays. Only the Sphinx award winner, Paul Hagen of MLB.com is living. Unless they pick a Buck O'Neil Award (for meritorious service to the game, started in 2008 and first posthumously given to O'Neil, Roland Hemond was the second recipient this past year) winner this year.

All right, so O'Day, White, and Ruppert probably won't make it. But Hank's old friends Bill Klem and John McGraw might be there to say a few words on his behalf. I know they've got some good stories. And if we're lucky, Fred Merkle will rehash his boner. If Deacon White doesn't show (in addition to being dead, he's suspicious of airplanes, the world being flat, you know), Deacon Jones is probably available. And then afterwards everyone can hoist a Knickerbocker in memory of Colonel Ruppert. I'm in. Anyone else?

[seawolf17]

dinosaur jesus wrote: And if we're lucky, Fred Merkle will rehash his boner.

"Hey, if that's all it takes to get into the Hall..." -David Cone

[Edgy MD]

seawolf17 wrote: My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now.

Steroids Three? I guess you mean Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire. But where does that leave Sosa and Palmiero? Each has a career that's pretty superlative if that question gets shelved. Possibly re-opens a door for Canseco too, if fully in is fully in.

Are you knocking off 20% (or so) for known juicers, which keeps those three over the line, but not the others? (I think this is a legit approach, by the way.)

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Nobody elected to the Hall of Fame. He was a rightfielder, I believe.

[Frayed Knot]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Nobody elected to the Hall of Fame. He was a rightfielder, I believe.

Well, a lot of the writers obviously voted for 'I don't give a darn'.
He, of course, was the short-stop.

[ashie62]

Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Ashie62 wrote: Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..

I thought this, too. If he's getting in at all, it's kind of now-or-never, isn't it?

[stevejrogers]

Ashie62 wrote: Could be the year for Gil Hodges then..

VC class already announced. Not sure when the next Post War ballot will be, possibly next year.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

Great to see confirmation that (rumoured) skin ailments are now a factor weighing against admission. But why didn't they at least vote Raines in? Did he have eczema or something?

Also it's funny how they conveniently ignored the rumors of Alomar's amphetamine use, after he was practically outed by Phillips.

lmao@ jay payton making the ballot.

SteveJRogers wrote: All dead at the present time. So is Tom Cheek, the Frick Award winning longtime voice of the Blue Jays.

Recently read the tax case concerning Cheek. It was actually really interesting. The question of law was whether commentators are entertainers. I'm presently writing an article arguing the case was wrongly decided.

[Edgy MD]

I'm trying to figure out if I should conclude that a voting body this fragmented has no chance of giving Jeter a higher vote percentage than Tom Seaver, or they'll all coalesce around Jeter as a symbolic figure of redemption, just as Seaver shown just a bit brighter as a symbolic straight arrow in an age of yippies.

[metirish]

For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe

�I think based on what happened in baseball in the recent past, we are allowed to assume guilt before innocence,� said Tony Massarotti of The Boston Globe. �I think you would be na�ve to think that anyone in baseball wasn�t doing something during that time.� But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids. �I don�t think Piazza or Jeff Bagwell are in the same category,� he said. �I don�t think they would have been good enough without help. I mean, Bagwell was a singles hitter in the minor leagues, and then his body changed and he was a home run hitter. Piazza was what, a 62nd-round draft pick?�

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sports/baseball/mike-piazza-falls-short-in-hall-of-fame-voting.html?_r=0

[metsmarathon]

maddux should sail right in, no?

i've got the following JAWS+ ratings for the '14 ballot:

bonds 226
clemens 171
maddux 135
bagwell 120
piazza 119
thomas 110
schilling 106
trammell 106
raines 106
mussina 104
-----
glavine 103
walker 102
palmiero 100
e.martinez 99
mcgwire 96
biggio 94
sosa 88
l.gonzalez 79
kent 79
mcgriff 79
... and joe borowski 14

there are 13 players on next year's ballot who are at least as good as the average hall of famer at their nominal position. can we maybe elect some of them, please?

[Edgy MD]

�I don�t think Piazza or Jeff Bagwell are in the same category,� he said. �I don�t think they would have been good enough without help. I mean, Bagwell was a singles hitter in the minor leagues, and then his body changed and he was a home run hitter. Piazza was what, a 62nd-round draft pick?�

Well, he only had two seasons, but the record suggests he was a pretty impressive doubles hitter. And, even then, he was a fantastic on-base guy.

Lots of guys don't really develop their homerun stroke until they're in the bigs. Guys like... Don Mattingly... Derek Jeter... .

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe ... But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids.... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sports/baseball/mike-piazza-falls-short-in-hall-of-fame-voting.html?_r=0

That's the Derek Jeter defense. Because Jeter is already a first ballot lock for the Hall, he's earned the right to take steroids and PED's openly for the rest of his career without fear of jeopardizing his HOF candidacy.

[dinosaur jesus]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: For fucks sake, look at the thinking with this twat that writes for the Boston Globe ... But that did not stop Massarotti from voting for both Clemens and Bonds. His reasoning was that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers even if they did not use steroids.... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/sports/baseball/mike-piazza-falls-short-in-hall-of-fame-voting.html?_r=0 That's the Derek Jeter defense. Because Jeter is already a first ballot lock for the Hall, he's earned the right to take steroids and PED's openly for the rest of his career without fear of jeopardizing his HOF candidacy.

Does it work the same way if you already had back acne when you came into the league?

[Ceetar]

Derek's acne would probably be as a result of something of something sexually transmitted, or basketly transmitted, not just because of steroids.

[ashie62]

Steroids schmeroids....its part of the era... base your vote on the compilation of work.

That will level the field for the douchnoozles that vote.

[seawolf17]

Edgy MD wrote: My ten for next year, as of right now: Bonds, Maddux, Bagwell, Piazza, Thomas, Biggio, Raines, McGwire, Clemens, and... Trammell, I guess? I'm not sure on my tenth. But I'm fully in on the Steroids Three now. Steroids Three? I guess you mean Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire. But where does that leave Sosa and Palmiero? Each has a career that's pretty superlative if that question gets shelved. Possibly re-opens a door for Canseco too, if fully in is fully in. Are you knocking off 20% (or so) for known juicers, which keeps those three over the line, but not the others? (I think this is a legit approach, by the way.)

I'm going to have to come around on Sosa too, probably, but Palmeiro doesn't cross the "best players of his generation" line for me. He never really led the league in anything, wasn't a perennial all-star. He stayed healthy, played a lot of games, hit a lot of home runs, but other than that, was never a superstar.

[Edgy MD]

The funny thing is the fans are as split on the issue of what to do with the roiders as the writers, but the writers are being vilified, and they're probably wondering why. They didn't create the problem. Nobody has been clear about what to do.

But what they don't seem to realize is that all anybody asks of them is to use some internally consistent logic. But so many have become such a bunch of swaggering voice-of-the-fan caricatures that few of them even know how to sustain original thoughts any more.

Heyman in 2011:

Why Bonds belongs in the Hall by Jon Heyman Barry Bonds doesn't belong in jail. He belongs in the Hall of Fame. In the court of law, Bonds probably got what he deserved, which was to be found guilty on obstruction charges but not perjury. Lawyers I talked to were somewhat surprised Bonds wasn't convicted on the perjury count involving his denial about ever being injected by anyone other than a doctor because his former personal shopper Kathy Hoskins testified that she witnessed Bonds' oft-jailed trainer, Greg Anderson, inject him. But on the main question, which was whether Bonds lied about knowingly taking performance-enhancing drugs, the feds didn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bonds perjured himself. The standards are high in a court of law, as they should be. For the Hall, it's a judgment call. Scoundrels and cheats are already in. So are foul-tempered jerks. Bonds may be all three. He is also one of the three greatest players I ever saw in his prime, along with Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson. A baseball Hall of Fame would be empty without Bonds. While I do believe Bonds took steroids (whether it was knowingly or not doesn't much matter to me, though if I had to guess, I think he knows everything that goes in his body), I don't believe all steroid users should be excluded from the Hall of Fame. I'm not here to sit in moral judgment of another human being. Of course I don't condone any usage, but I will point out Bonds' steroid taking was never flagged by MLB. He never failed a test (he passed the 2003 survey test) and he was never proven to have used after testing went into effect. I also believe the anecdotal evidence that suggests he didn't start using until 2000. Unless a voter makes a moral judgment (and I won't judge voters who do that, either), the question voters need to ask, beyond whether a candidate ever used PEDs, is whether those drugs helped transform the player into a Hall of Famer. If there's a reasonable chance that player would have fallen short of the Hall without the extra help, I won't vote yes. I vote no on Mark McGwire, who I like much better than Bonds. While I believe McGwire's achievements are clearly Hall worthy (it's a copout to say they aren't), I have strong reason to suspect the drugs helped him reach those heights. As for Bonds, I don't think anyone could reasonably make the case that he needed drugs to be a Hall of Famer. When Bonds signed with his hometown Giants for $43.75 million in December of 1992 to become the highest-paid player in baseball history he was already the best player in the game, and he earned that contract through only good genes (his dad, Bobby, was also an incredible combination of speed and power) and hard work. He had a small head at the time, and he maintained that, at least in the literal sense, for several years to come. "Phenomenal ... Best player I ever saw,'' said the Rockies' Jason Giambi, another great ballplayer and admitted former steroid user, on Thursday. Giambi might have personal reason to overlook the value of steroids in others, but almost anyone who saw Bonds could probably echo Giambi's comment about him. The case has yet to be made that steroids enhanced Bonds anytime before 2000. Anecdotal evidence suggests that he started using sometime before that season. He was so annoyed to see lesser-lights such as Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa overtake him due to their drug regimens that Bonds decided to join the drug club. That's the story, and I believe it. Bonds knew he was the best, and he didn't want anyone stealing that title from him. So he started using. It wasn't a good decision on his part. Although the 'roids enabled him to become the pseudo alltime home run king, it put a taint on everything he did in his career beginning in '00. It also wasn't a good idea to stonewall prosecutors, to be evasive and obfuscate. The truth is always a good idea when the feds come calling. "Yeah, I'd say so,'' Giambi responded when asked whether he's happy to have told the truth and admitted his steroid use. "I went and did what I had to do. Even though it was eight years, it was nothing Earth shattering. It was things everyone already knew. I didn't know anything about Barry. I talked about my own usage and moved on. It was eight years, but I am done.'' Giambi is a natural truth teller. Bonds had more to lose. He was, at the time of his grand jury testimony, the single-season home run king and a real candidate for the Hall. That's no excuse, however, to stonewall the feds. Bonds probably got what he deserved from the government for it. He had to live through a gut-wrenching trial, and now he is a convicted felon. Sentencing guidelines suggest a jail sentence of 15-to-21 months, but Judge Susan Ilston sentenced cyclist Tammy Thomas to six months of home confinement and track coach Trevor Graham to one year of home confinement after similar convictions. Lawyers with some familiarity with the case told me yesterday that they don't believe the government will attempt to retry Bonds on the perjury charges, as they carry similar penalties. They came close to conviction on Bonds' claim that he wasn't injected by anyone but his doctor (according to one juror, that vote was 11-1 to convict on that count) and solid majorities voted to acquit (eight on one count, nine on the other) on the most relevant perjury counts. I've seen some lawyers quoted saying Ilston must show that the big fish doesn't get preferential treatment. But it's the opposite, I think. Already, they only went after Bonds in the first place because he's the big guy. There were plenty of baseball players who did steroids and plenty who were customers of BALCO. But he is one of two on trial. The feds have every right to prosecute one or some or none, but we can't forget the reason they went after Bonds in the first place is because he is who he is. Enough is enough now. Ilston has been reasonable before, and there's no reason to assume she'd opt to give Bonds jail time when she hasn't in the past. But if she does, well, it's fair to say he did do the crime. Technically, because he wasn't convicted of lying, perhaps some Bonds supporter can try to make the case that the feds didn't prove he took steroids. And that may be so. But what proof did we need? As Giambi already said regarding himself, we already knew. Even if the bigger body and head aren't quite proof that Bonds did steroids, his power totals late in his career are. Nobody improves their slugging numbers after 35 the way Bonds did. It just isn't humanly possible. We didn't need a long trial and millions of dollars and hours of manpower spent to tell us Bonds is a cheat. It's fair to say that not all his numbers are legit. But enough of them are, in all great likelihood, to suggest he was Hall worthy before he became a steroid user. As I said, I believe he didn't start using until the 2000 season, by which point he had already: � Won three NL MVP awards � Won eight Gold Glove awards � Hit 448 home runs � Made eight All-Star appearances � Had the highest WAR in baseball six times It's probably easier just to promise not to vote any steroid users into the Hall. But I am not ready to wipe out an entire era. I can't prove that a majority of baseball players used steroids in that era, but the evidence suggests that many of the best players did. Just look at the MVP winners who have been linked to PEDs or have admitted using: Ken Caminiti, Sammy Sosa, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez. The Hall already inducted spitball pitcher Gaylord Perry without a stitch of uproar. Perry wrote the book (literally) on how to deface baseballs to get hitters out. A case can be made that Bonds' type of cheating is worse. But unlike Perry, I'd say he did it at a time when many were doing it, and he didn't start doing it until he already had a Hall of Fame career. I don't admire Bonds as anything other than a ballplayer. But that's what he was -- a ballplayer, probably the best I or many of us have ever seen.

[Edgy MD]

The original bacne thread, featuring a Hall of Fame post from dinojesus.

[metirish]

Edgy MD wrote: The original bacne thread, featuring a Hall of Fame post from dinojesus.

Dying

I never saw the boils on Mickey Cochrane's butt cheeks, or the blackheads on Ernie Lombardi's nose. But I saw John Stearns go 3 for 3 and steal two bases with a zit on the inside of his thigh that would have crippled an ordinary man. I saw a whitehead on Jerry Grote's forehead that got so inflamed when he squeezed it, Tug McGraw asked him if he was a Hindu, and couldn't stop laughing even when Jerry punched him out. And I saw Ron Hodges catch a doubleheader with a case of shingles you could cover a house with. But these old eyes have never seen anything like the opposite field power and back acne that Mike Piazza brought to the table every night. The drugstore in Cooperstown had better stock up on Clearasil, because Mike is moving in to stay.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Classic!

I miss the old player avatars.