The Starting Rotation

[nymr83]

I don't think John Maine will be here much longer. he looks like garbage out there throwing 85 miles an hour and without control. I'm almost as sour on him now as I am on Perez (ok not really).

Santana is what he is, the Mets won't win without him at least in the immediate future. Niese is young and has potential and I think Pelfrey is clearly miles ahead of Perez/Maine right now.

Perez looks terrible, and its nothing new. I'd have no problem throwing him overboard and letting whoever the hottest hand in AAA is get some starts. I really don't think 30 starts divided up among the like of Parnell, Figueroa, etc would be worse than Perez.

Maine looks bad. Either he hasn't really recovered from his last injury or... well I don't see an "or" here, his velocity is gone. I'm not ready to give up yet but the Mets need to be on alert with him and ready to replace him.

This team needs starting pitching pretty damn badly.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

REMINDER: Figueroa's a Phil. The Mets waived him in favor of keeping Sean Green (previously working out a new pitching motion/currently DLed) and Jenrry Mejia (currently pitching low-leverage, offspeed-pitch-free innings) on the major-league roster.

[nymr83]

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Maine's sucked for a good year solid now. He may never get his velocity back, and if anything I have less faith in him regaining his junk than Perez, but they both of course could be lost.

Stop wasting your tears on Figueroa. Easy come easy go.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

YOU DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO FEEL ABOUT MY FIGGY!

[Fman99]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: YOU DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO FEEL ABOUT MY FIGGY!

BOC, because there's no such thing as a "bullet of stupidly awesome."

[Gwreck]

I'd have far less concern about Figueroa if the Mets were keeping Meija in the minors and using him as a starter with an eye towards bringing him up in the second half of the year.

I could see one more start for Maine but he should be looking over his shoulder for Pat Misch.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

You might see more starts for the guy than Field-Jefe can, as per the Ledger's Brian Costa:

Manuel said Maine's rotation spot could be in jeopardy. They'll discuss it further. Lack of velocity a big concern. #nym about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter

And is "throwing strikes" this year's "hit it the opposite way?" According to Adam Rubin, Mr. Warthen sees it that way.

"We don�t want them to do that, but we�re so in tune to not walking people, maybe we are trying to not let it go like we�re capable of doing," Warthen said.

[Mex17]

Even if Mejia was starting in AA right now, he would not be ready to start for the Mets until at least the middle of next season. He needs a full year in AA and at least half a season in AAA.

This, of course, makes it all the more criminal to have him in the major league bullpen right now.

Cutting Figueroa with the rotation in this much flux was INSANELY criminal!!

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's... malfecant.

[TransMonk]

Figgy was never an answer...only a stop-gap. And you can't plug a hole in a dam with your finger.

Maine and Perez are awful and I don't have any cahnfidence in them getting any better. If youngsters/upstarts are available to fill in, then I'd rather watch them lose.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Mex17 wrote: Even if Mejia was starting in AA right now, he would not be ready to start for the Mets until at least the middle of next season. He needs a full year in AA and at least half a season in AAA.

I don't buy this. He'd probably get hammered some nights (all young pitchers do) but I wouldn't hesitate to swap Maine and Mejia's roles next time though. The Mets'll prolly take pains to make a show of "stretching him out" for a few weeks in the minors or whatever, but it has to be up there with the best options on fixing this mess.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

It's not all the rotation. We're not going to win a whole lot of games scoring only 3 and 2 runs.

[Ceetar]

You might see more starts for the guy than Field-Jefe can, as per the Ledger's Brian Costa: Manuel said Maine's rotation spot could be in jeopardy. They'll discuss it further. Lack of velocity a big concern. #nym about 2 hours ago via UberTwitter And is "throwing strikes" this year's "hit it the opposite way?" According to Adam Rubin, Mr. Warthen sees it that way. "We don�t want them to do that, but we�re so in tune to not walking people, maybe we are trying to not let it go like we�re capable of doing," Warthen said.

It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly. Also, when you're trying to pinpoint control, from my understanding, you tend ot not quite let it rip as hard. Maybe that's why the velocity is down? Perez's wasn't even a shoulder injury (and he wasn't qutie as OMG RELEASE HIM bad in 2008. Maine had a 4-1 2.75 ERA last May. so somewhere, the talent is there. his last two starts of last year he was throwing 91-92 (although in his second to las start his changeup/slider was like 85-86, which was too fast. He had that around 82 last night)



So where'd that velocity go, if he could throw it post-surgery? Is it an arm strength thing? just needs to build it up to get that hard? is it this silly no walks thing that seems to be the only thing Warthen knows? something else? And who knows how to fix it ? (Certainly not the analysts, radio hosts, and beat writers that will tell us what his velocity means and waht we should do abuot it)

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly.

Well, the only guy who hit a homerun yesterday was Smith, but nine Rockie batters walked, so I don't think it's particularly silly to want to address that sort of behavior.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: It's curious. (Warthen's a bum. I see nothing I like from him.) I said that during the spring that maybe this insistance on "DONT WALK ANYBODY!" was causing the pitchers to start missing over the plate instead of off it (especially Perez). So HR instead of Ball. Silly. Well, the only guy who hit a homerun yesterday was Smith, but nine Rockie batters walked, so I don't think it's particularly silly to want to address that sort of behavior.

Not silly to address it, no. But fixing it isn't as simple as saying "Don't do it". You have to teach more about setting up hitters, and when throwing out of the strikezone is acceptable. The walks yesterday were partly Nieve not having it at all, and part Maine having no confidence in his fastball so trying to paint corners and missing.

[Ceetar]

Conversely, pitching to contact is not the answer either. Even for Pelfrey. Even at Citi Field.

[metirish]

Maine and Perez have suffered from not being under the tutelage of Peterson.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think it's ever true that because one part of pitching (or hitting) is mentioned as a priority, the rest of the instruction has been forsaken. But your post certainly suggested that setting that priority has been counterproductive, when it certainly has not.

Let's not over-react to nothing here. It's a good priority. George Bamberger was fanatical about throwing strikes, getting ahead of hitters, and making sure the homers you give up are solo shots, and he did pretty well with his pitchers. He'd get so frustrated with the young Met pitchers in his care that he'd take the mound himself at 60 years old with 60 pounds of beergut and zip strikes in there to show them how easy it was.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I don't think it's ever true that because one part of pitching (or hitting) is mentioned as a priority, the rest of the instruction has been forsaken. But your post certainly suggested that setting that priority has been counterproductive, when it certainly has not.

The quote above suggests that even Warthen thinks that could be the case. supposedly they're going to have dialogue, after two games, about him staying in the rotation. This suggests to me that they just don't know what to do. Which is criminal. It's Warthen's job to know. He should be coming out and saying "We're going to work on getting his fastball down in the zone." "We need to work on hitting the inside corner more against right hand hitters." "We need to explore our options for what to throw to get a strikeout."

Maine's comments suggest he seems lost. he mentions getting the fastball down more, but it sounds to me like he's just not sure what the gameplan is and how he's not happy with how/where he's throwing (well duh). And, like the confidence boosters Manuel and Warthen are, they're not tellling him we're going to work on this or that. They're talking about taking him out of the rotation instead of how to keep him in it. And this is what I've been complaining about with this team for a while. They're also focusing on eliminating the bad, but not on fixing it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

You know, that's the second indictment of "criminality" in this thread. Let's get a bit of perspective. Here's a poorly kept secret: nobody knows. Arms are mysterious things and the key to making success throwing balls is elusive. Some guys know more than others, then suddenly they know less. On some issues, a good pitching coach has core values that apply across the board; on others, he has to take it on a case-by-case basis. Pitcher by pitcher, game by game.

If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. When a guy is going bad, a lot of things can be wrong, and it takes some work to figure out what is wrong and what (if anything, and maybe there isn't anything) can be done to correct it. If he had the knowledge and the magic and the whatever to make Maine go out there and not fail, and Maine failed anyway, is that more comforting? Less criminal?

Warthan may not be the best guy to run this staff. He most probably isn't. But to take that meandering quote as evidence of anything is forcing things to fit where there is no pattern --- especially when you're arguing that Warthan's strategy is going to lead to fewer walks but more homers and that's the exact opposite of what happened.

[MFS62]

Well, if Maine's position in the rotation is in trouble, how about a three way swap?

1) Mejia hasn't been pitching in sugnificant game spots, so why not move Maine into those spots? It will give him a chance to work out his non-stuff problems (e,g,- location) and give the team a chance to monitor his velocity up close and personal.

2) Send down Mejia to AAA or AA and start stretching out his innings so he can start this year.

3) Who replaces Maine in the rotation? Bring up Bobby Parnell. If he doesn't go into the rotation, then he goes to the bullpen with Nieve moving into the rotation. I know Jerry likes to have a bullpen that can protect late inning leads. But if the starters are getting murdered, there aren't too many late inning leads to protect, anyhow.

Hey, its worth a shot.

Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think Parnell is going to start again (maybe ever), but the four way swap is fine to me. I'm all for it.

The problem with hoping the Mets are going to do it is that changing their plans and sending down Mejia to start smells too much of failure to think that they are going to brave the shitstorm that will erupt.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know.

It's a results business. If Warthen doesn't know, hasn't known for a while, then why keep him? Sure, maybe no one knows. It's certainly possible. But it seems pretty clear that we know that he doesn't know. So try someone else. do the research. hire smart people.

It's always hard to truly evaluate this stuff, because we really don't know what conversations Maine and Warthen have between themselves, and how much value they have. Regardless, I don't think Warthen should be coming out and babbling like he has no idea what to do. This team puts forth a front of having no clue about any plan or long term goals, and whether that's true or not, some confidence would befit this team.

At least Maine didn't storm back into the clubhouse. He sat down and talked with Warthen, first thing. (Although I would've sent him back out there at that point. I'm wondering if building up his arm strength and facing more batters in general would be beneficial) At least have him top 100. Just a thought.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: Edgy DC wrote: If you read the entirety of that post, Warthan is all over the place, because he doesn't quite know. It's a results business. If Warthen doesn't know, hasn't known for a while, then why keep him?

Because the results last year were perhaps not demonstrably a product of Warthan's ken. The entire rotation went down with injuries. Maybe that's all his fault. I really don't know.

I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying what you're looking for in that quote as evidence against him is not there.

Do you think the Orioles will let us send a vet or two down for the old Norfolk Cure?

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Do you think the Orioles will let us send a vet or two down for the old Norfolk Cure?

Aren't the Orioles like 1-9? We could send 'em south, but they might never make it past Maryland.




I'm not using the quote as any proof of anything, but there just seem to be more and more worrysome signs that worry me, even if one or two don't really mean much.

[Guest Edgy DC]

That's fair. But the main sign, of course, is 2-5.

[ashie62]

Everything said so far is fair.

The pitching should have been addressed in the off season, not between now and July.

We all watched Maine pitch. In my opinion his arm is shot. Pitching & defense win.

[smg58]

The Mets seemed to be very cautious with Maine in the pre-season (i.e., not stretching him out as quickly as the others), so they had an inclination he wasn't all the way back. Then why force it? Give Maine some time in AAA. We have plenty of options that are, at worst, no less viable than he is right now (and we had an additional one in ST that we were comfortable giving away to the Phillies). He'd have to clear waivers, but at $3.3M I would lose no sleep if somebody claimed him (which I seriously doubt would happen).

What was frustrating to me last night was that Maine got some nice strikeouts, and some better defense on the part of Maine himself and our corner infielders would have kept the Mets in the game.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Sure, but we'd lose sleep if somebody claimed him and he excelled, which may happen, so we might have to see this thing through for a little bit, as painful as they might be.