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[Guest AG/DC]

But it really is a logical stretch to link Robinson's legacy an adversarial relationship to the Mets.

If Babe Ruth had a legacy --- let's say he cured polio during his career --- and he did it

• in a lab right here in New York,


• with a staff of New Yorkers,


• financed by ordinary New Yorkers like you and me,


• in a lab at the ballpark,


• supported by the team's management,


• with his teammates' support,


• and captured the imagination of the nation and the world,


• and underscored how outer-borough, blue collar neighborhoods could be part of something great and filled with meaningful lives,


• and then the team fucked off to the west coast 20 minutes after his retirement


• and left a bereft city,


• beginning the long slow decline of the American city and the pride in the cultures and accomplishments of city neighborhoods,


• and the Mets were created in part as a noble failure of a make-good on that broken compact,

you bet I'd support a Babe Ruth monument.

But Babe Ruth was none of that. He was a great (greatest) hitter representing something far different whose legacy is quite well spoken for in New York.

[batmagadanleadoff]

So what's next: The Jonas Salk Wing at CitiField? Jackie's legacy is also well represented. I don't know of any Babe Ruth highway in NYC.

[Guest AG/DC]

No.

[Vic Sage]

]But it really is a logical stretch to link Robinson's legacy an adversarial relationship to the Mets

no, it's not.

Robinson was a Brooklyn Dodger, and became emblematic of that franchise. That franchise ran out on the borough of Brooklyn to make more money out west. My parents never forgave them. Many in my old neighborhood curse the Dodgers to this very day. And a statue to their icon in the Mets lobby is an affront to the very real pain people like my parents went through.

Its not that they blame Jackie, or don't honor his memory and his accomplishments, both on and off the field. But they'd just as soon not have their noses rubbed in one of the most painful memories of their baseball lives every time they walk into their own ballpark.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[soupcan]

I don't think its about the Dodgers at all.

It's about National League baseball in NYC and a man who transcended the game.

The monument is about more than a baseball player. It's about a man whose ideals and struggles and accomplishments as a person should be remembered. The guy just happened to play baseball. In New York City. For a National League team. That was the spiritual ancestor of the Mets.

Wouldn't Brooklyn Dodger fans be somewhat appeased though by the fact that Jackie did not go west? He was not one of the 'traitors'

[Benjamin Grimm]

But is it the Brooklyn Dodgers they're cursing, or the Los Angeles Dodgers?

My impression is, and I could be wrong, that Hodges, Campanella, Reese, Robinson, Snider, etc. are still loved in Brooklyn, and so is that 1955 team.

It's O'Malley that's hated, and the franchise that's currently located in Los Angeles.

It would surprise me if those who actually remember the Brooklyn Dodgers are offended by a Jackie Robinson tribute.

I have no problem with it, but I do think the whole Ebbets Field thing is a bit over the top. And they really ought to introduce, at some point, a statue of Tom Seaver. Or one of Jerry Koosman catching Jerry Grote in his arms. Or of Jesse Orosco on his knees with his arms up in the air.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: ]But it really is a logical stretch to link Robinson's legacy an adversarial relationship to the Mets no, it's not. Robinson was a Brooklyn Dodger, and became emblematic of that franchise. That franchise ran out on the borough of Brooklyn to make more money out west. My parents never forgave them. Many in my old neighborhood curse the Dodgers to this very day. And a statue to their icon in the Mets lobby is an affront to the very real pain people like my parents went through. Its not that they blame Jackie, or don't honor his memory and his accomplishments, both on and off the field. But they'd just as soon not have their noses rubbed in one of the most painful memories of their baseball lives every time they walk into their own ballpark. Why is that so hard to understand?

I agree. I could never, ever, stand to read this feel good propaganda about the Mets being the progeny of the Giants and Dodgers. It certainly wasn't the intent of O'Malley and Stoneham for the Mets to come into existence. If anything, they were dead against a new New York franchise partaking of the huge market for competitive advantages. The Mets came into being under the most oppressive conditions in the history of MLB. Their early and spectacular incompetence was partly by design.

This whole progeny business has gotten so distorted, you'd think that the Dodgers and Giants left solely so that the Mets could be created.

Jackie Robinson's uniform said "Dodgers" on the chest. That's the enemy.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: No.

So what's your favorite pizzeria?

[Guest AG/DC]

Because it is blaming Jackie. And that's irrational.

The fact that the Dodgers' and Giants' were the biggest draws in town, that their broken down players were popular when they returned to the Mets, and continually popular when they returned on Old Timer's Day, that their games were broadcast back in New York, suggests that ogtagenarians have long more than capable of distinguishing between the players that played for them and the owner that betrayed them.

Since 99% of the people who enter Citi Field will have never seen a Brooklyn Dodgers game, and the ones who have are going to be typically more rational than you're giving them credit for, I'm going to stick to the position that this is a largley contrived insult.

And I don't deserve escalation nonsense like "why is that so hard for you to understand?" Please stop trying to fight for sport.

[Guest AG/DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: It certainly wasn't the intent of O'Malley and Stoneham for the Mets to come into existence.

Has anybody argued that it was?

[Guest AG/DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: ="AG/DC"]No. So what's your favorite pizzeria?

I answered a yes/no queston. I don't know what this means.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"]It certainly wasn't the intent of O'Malley and Stoneham for the Mets to come into existence. Has anybody argued that it was?

Not specifically,and not on this thread. Just doing my anticipatory best to address the supposed idea that the Dodgers begat the Mets.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"] AG/DC wrote: No. So what's your favorite pizzeria? I answered a yes/no queston. I don't know what this means.

It means "What's your favorite pizzeria"?

[Centerfield]

I could perhaps buy the argument about honoring Jackie Robinson for his accomplishments if I felt that this was the reason he was being commemorated at CitiField. But I don't. I don't think Fred wanted Jackie Robinson Rotunda, or the faux-Ebbets field like look because of the things Robinson did. I think Fred wants to do it because he was a Dodger fan. I get that he was hurt when the Dodgers left, and in a way, he is fulfulling some sort of childhood dream by bringing them back, in his own way. But I think it's childish and dumb.

If you are going to honor the Dodgers, you should honor the Giants too. Forget how Dodgers fans feel, think about how old Giants fans must feel walking into their new ballpark and seeing all sorts of crap about their old rivals.

I get that he's an owner, and that entitles him to certain liberties. But as an owner, if you do stupid shit, we should be able to call you on it. For instance, I loved Star Wars when I was a kid. If one day I buy the Mets and decide to make their stadium look like the Milennium Falcon, I should be criticized for it.

Ever since the new stadium was proposed, I hated the idea of trying to make it look like Ebbets Field. They're gone Fred. Let it go. I'm just thankful that, now that it's built, it doesn't look that stupid.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"] AG/DC wrote: No. So what's your favorite pizzeria? I answered a yes/no queston. I don't know what this means.

It means "What's your favorite pizzeria?" I used this phrase in an earlier post on this thread to suggest that there really isn't a right or wrong point of view. When I buy the Mets, I'll exercise my right to put up a statue of Tom Seaver. Or Tom Gorman. It'll be my team then.

If we've reached the point here where we understand (though disagree) with each other comments and are otherwise, at a dead end, we could play What's your favorite pizzeria, as a way to respectfully agree to disagree.

I'll even start. Di Fara's in Brooklyn.

[Guest AG/DC]

I'm on record as being against the Ebbets Field façade also.

Callling a tribute to Jackie Robnson an insult is another matter.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: I could perhaps buy the argument about honoring Jackie Robinson for his accomplishments if I felt that this was the reason he was being commemorated at CitiField. But I don't. I don't think Fred wanted Jackie Robinson Rotunda, or the faux-Ebbets field like look because of the things Robinson did. I think Fred wants to do it because he was a Dodger fan. I get that he was hurt when the Dodgers left, and in a way, he is fulfulling some sort of childhood dream by bringing them back, in his own way. But I think it's childish and dumb.

I suspect the same. There's often a huge gap between action and motive. Owners are smart enough to provide what they'd believe to be the most politically correct or acceptable explanations for their public actions, instead of the pure truth.

I don't have the evidence, but I'd bet anything that the creation of the Jackie Robinson rotunda was mostly motivated by Fred's desire to revisit his own personal childhood baseball memories.

[Guest AG/DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If we've reached the point here where we understand (though disagree) with each other comments and are otherwise, at a dead end, we could play What's your favorite pizzeria, as a way to respectfully agree to disagree. I'll even start. Di Fara's in Brooklyn.

I appreciate that, though Vic's told me I fail to even understand.

Broadway Joes in Riverdale.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Oh brother! <------- Now I'm Wee Willie Small Balls. I need nine more posts. And quick.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: I appreciate that, though Vic's told me I fail to even understand.

Well, you didn't understand "What's your favorite pizzeria". So Vic's at least somewhat right.

[Guest AG/DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I don't have the evidence, but I'd bet anything that the creation of the Jackie Robinson rotunda was mostly motivated by Fred's desire to revisit his own personal childhood baseball memories.

Another theory with facts supporting it is that the Mets and the city were under an intense populist campaign to name the stadium Jackie Robinson Stadium. Having already written the $$ from their coporate naming rights into the spreadsheets, they had to find a way to appease or be portrayed as racist. Wilpon's on record as having responded to the demand for the stadium to be named in honor of Jackie with something along the llines of "He will be appropriately honored."

I imagine a scenario where he ran back to the plannning board and said, "How do we 'appropriately honor' him? I just promised big out there."

[Guest AG/DC]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: ="AG/DC"]I appreciate that, though Vic's told me I fail to even understand. Well, you didn't understand "What's your favorite pizzeria". So Vic's at least somewhat right.

I don't typically take my pizza with red herrings on it.

[Centerfield]

I don't believe that Fred is being honest when he says he's honoring Jackie Robinson for the great things that he did. I think he's "honoring" him to get Dodger stuff all over the place to satisfy his own agenda. No one is arguing that Jackie Robinson was a great man, but honestly, he has almost nothing to do with the Mets. By the time the 1962 Mets took the field, baseball was integrated, and the original squad had several black players.

Likewise, the Millenium Falcon was a great spaceship. She did the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs. But like Robinson, has almost nothing to do with the Mets.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I get what Fred is doing.

Say I somehow became Very Rich Mets Guy in Michigan and bought the Tigers and built a new stadium to replace the God-awful place they're in now, I'd add blue and orange rectangles to the sides and have a statue of Tom Seaver. Why? Because I could.

So while I can see what he's doing, I'm not offended because I like Jackie Robinson.

But like I said, I want to see them honor Tom and Gil and everyone else, too.


Pizza in Michigan tends to be awful, unless you like Dominos and Little Caesers, both of which have Tigers links.

I found a family owned place recently, and the pizza was really, really, good. Surprisingly good. New York good.

So one day I was talking with the owners, and praising their pizza, saying it was the closest thing to New York pizza I've found in Michigan. Turns out they're from North Jersey.

I was afraid to ask team preference, because if they were Yankees fans I'd feel guilty about going back.

[Centerfield]

AG/DC wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"]I don't have the evidence, but I'd bet anything that the creation of the Jackie Robinson rotunda was mostly motivated by Fred's desire to revisit his own personal childhood baseball memories. Another theory with facts supporting it is that the Mets and the city were under an intense populist campaign to name the stadium Jackie Robinson Stadium. Having already written the $$ from their coporate naming rights into the spreadsheets, they had to find a way to appease or be portrayed as racist. Wilpon's on record as having responded to the demand for the stadium to be named in honor of Jackie with something along the llines of "He will be appropriately honored." I imagine a scenario where he ran back to the plannning board and said, "How do we 'appropriately honor' him? I just promised big out there."

That's an interesting theory. You may be right there. But I would counter that this outcry was brought about, at least in part, because he designed his stadium to look like Ebbets Field.

Absent that, Fred could have come back with "Why would we name our Stadium after a guy who played for another team? And if he's that important to baseball/society as a whole, how about the MFY's get in this by naming their stadium 'Jackie' and we'll name our's 'Robinson'."

[soupcan]

Pepe's in New Haven

The one in Fairfield is actually pretty good too.

Ate at Roseland in Derby, CT last night. didn't live up to its reputation I thought.

[Guest AG/DC]

I don't see that potential answer of Fred's working in any way but himiliation.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"]If we've reached the point here where we understand (though disagree) with each other comments and are otherwise, at a dead end, we could play What's your favorite pizzeria, as a way to respectfully agree to disagree. I'll even start. Di Fara's in Brooklyn. I appreciate that, though Vic's told me I fail to even understand. Broadway Joes in Riverdale.

It's now almost half an hour since my "What's your favorite pizzeria" post, and you still haven't started a "What's your favorite pizzeria" thread.

Are you slipping? Is everything OK?

[metsmarathon]

="Centerfield"]If one day I buy the Mets and decide to make their stadium look like the Milennium Falcon...

i guess i'm the only one who thinks that would be a freaking awesome baseball stadium, huh?

i should find some free time and photoshop that...

[Guest Iubitul]

soupcan wrote: Pepe's in New Haven The one in Fairfield is actually pretty good too. Ate at Roseland in Derby, CT last night. didn't live up to its reputation I thought.

soup - if you're in Milford, try Michelangelos on the Post Road.