Peterson, Nieto: Jobless Americans?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

]Rick Peterson, Tom Nieto facing ax but Willie Randolph safe - for now BY ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Sunday, June 15th 2008, 10:01 PM If Randolph gets the ax, he may be replaced by bench coach Jerry Manuel. Omar Minaya refused to guarantee that his on-field staff would remain intact for Monday's game in Anaheim, further fueling speculation that at least two of Willie Randolph's coaches could be axed during the Mets' series against the Angels that opens Monday. It's believed that Minaya abruptly changed his travel plans as the Mets' team bus was about to depart Shea Stadium on Sunday night and quietly joined the team for its cross-country flight following Sunday's doubleheader split against the Rangers that left the Mets 33-35. Minaya, who has steadfastly refused to offer any assurances of Randolph's or his coaches' job security, was asked point-blank if the same staff would be in place Monday night at Angel Stadium. The cryptic - or perhaps telling - response from Minaya: "Do I expect that? Look, they're our coaches today (Sunday). I'm not going to change what I've been saying before that. They're our coaches today. What I've said before is that they are our coaches - and the manager. "Myself, as the general manager, I evaluate those things, especially with the team not doing what it should be doing. I always leave myself the room to evaluate those things." Sources have told the Daily News that principal owner Fred Wilpon and chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon have authorized Minaya to fire Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto. Bench coach Jerry Manuel would ascend to manager if Randolph is ousted, while Triple-A New Orleans manager Ken Oberkfell and pitching coach Dan Warthen would join the major league staff. A team insider speculated that Randolph could survive a first round of firings, saying: "I think the coaches are in trouble. That may be the compromise for now." Pressed with the point that no reporter was looking for an assurance of jobs for the year, a month or even a week - just for Monday night's game - Minaya added: "I keep on answering the question the same way it's always been. We have a manager. We have coaches. ... You know my feelings on it. I think we're not playing to our potential. I always like to leave myself to be able to evaluate those things." Minaya met with Randolph at length in the manager's office after Sunday's doubleheader, and the embattled Randolph and VP Jay Horwitz were the final members of the travel party to trudge down a Shea hallway toward the players' parking lot and the bus to the airport. Peterson, the longest-tenured member of the Mets' coaching staff, arrived from Oakland in 2004, the final year of Art Howe's tenure as Mets manager. Before walking to the team bus, Peterson said he hadn't been given any insight about his future. Billed as the "CEO of pitching" by Fred Wilpon upon his arrival, and a vigilant proponent of using data, Peterson will forever be linked to the failed Scott Kazmir-for-Victor Zambrano trade - regardless of his actual role in that debacle. A Mets insider leaked to reporters at the time of that deal that Peterson had claimed he could fix Zambrano "in 10 minutes," though the pitching coach has longed insisted he was talking about a particular mechanical flaw in Zambrano's delivery and not an overhaul. Peterson's contract runs through the 2009 season.

[Frayed Knot]

Axing Peterson would certainly please a lot of Met fans - although it always amazed me how many Met fans seem to be virulently (and at times almost violently) anti-Peterson.
Misplaced anger left over from the Kazmir trade no doubt, but by now that's more a convenient excuse than an actual reason unless you're Benigno-level stupid.

Rubin's going to be on FAN at about 11:45

[Guest AG/DC]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Billed as the "CEO of pitching" by Fred Wilpon upon his arrival, and a vigilant proponent of using data, Peterson will forever be linked to the failed Scott Kazmir-for-Victor Zambrano trade - regardless of his actual role in that debacle. A Mets insider leaked to reporters at the time of that deal that Peterson had claimed he could fix Zambrano "in 10 minutes," though the pitching coach has longed insisted he was talking about a particular mechanical flaw in Zambrano's delivery and not an overhaul. Peterson's contract runs through the 2009 season.

Ugh. Stinks that Rubin slipped into the passive voice here. It may well be time for him to go, but hanging a failed unpopular trade on the pitching coach is for scapegoaters only, and they shouldn't define the guy's tenure.

Other things he should be forever linked to:

1. Mullets


2. Jackets


3. Rolling his chart up and bringing it to his mouth like a horn


4. Projecting a Tony La Russa-like zen detachment


5. Being unable to get anything across to Mr. Koo on a visit to the mound


6. Fortune cookies


7. The A's trio of then-young guns


8. Incorporating biomechanical research


9. Incorporating minor-league statistical data


10. Incorporating psychological principles

[Gwreck]

I'm not sure what Nieto actually does or doesn't do on the team to warrant a firing. Sandy Alomar? Sure. HoJo? Sure. Does Nieto have any actual duties other than first base coach (and perhaps working with the catchers?)?

[DocTee]

If Nieto goes while Sandy stays, it's a shame.

[Guest AG/DC]

My guess is Sandy is Willie's deepest loyalty, and perhaps the only axing that he'd resign over.

Omar has to keep Willie alive as long as possible, as the next one to bear the burden of failure after Willie would be him. So otherwise seemng arbitrary sackings of Willie's staff makes sense from his point of view.

[nymr83]

i dont like the idea of firing coaches instead of the manager.
the manager, for as long as you want to keep him, should have the coaches he wants to help him out.
though since peterson wasn't willie's guy to begin with it wouldn't really matter as much in this case.

[metirish]

The whole thing is stupid , Randolph surviving or getting the sack game by game or by in game decisions even , this is no way to run a club , yeah fire the coaches , big fucking deal.


Either fire Randolph or come out and tell the world that he is the manager for the season,


At times I think the Mets are as big a mess as the Knicks.

[Mex17]

I think that it is uneccesary and cruel to fly those men all the way from New York to California only to fire them

[Guest AG/DC]

metirish wrote: At times I think the Mets are as big a mess as the Knicks.

I'm not there yet. I'm not down with a lot of their choices, but there's little reason to think Randolph is less than a good man. And there's little reason to think Thomas is more than a bad one. To a lesser extent, I have similar feelings about the Wilpons and the Dolans.

That's something.

[Mex17]

AG/DC wrote: ="metirish"]At times I think the Mets are as big a mess as the Knicks. I'm not there yet. I'm not down with a lot of their choices, but there's little reason to think Randolph is less than a good man. And there's little reason to think Thomas is more than a bad one. To a lesser extent, I have similar feelings about the Wilpons and the Dolans. That's something.

Well put.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Spate of articles lately comparing the Wilpons to the Dolans. Harvey Araton in the Times accussed Jeff of pulling all the strings of Willie's job security crisis by disgusing himself as a source close to the Mets, and wearing away confidence in him.

One guy, I think it was harper in the snooze today, argues that Hank Steinbrenner's bluster is preferable to Jeff Wilpon's Dolanesque backroom maneuverings.

[metirish]

I'm not comparing Randolph to Thomas , just the way things are being run at the moment, the manager having to answer questions about his job status after every game is no way to treat the man, Willie admitted that he drove to Shea yesterday wondering what it would take to keep his job, and he wondered if he would be making the trip to Los Angeles . Minaya then changes plans to make the trip , it stinks.

[Guest AG/DC]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Spate of articles lately comparing the Wilpons to the Dolans. Harvey Araton in the Times accussed Jeff of pulling all the strings of Willie's job security crisis by disgusing himself as a source close to the Mets, and wearing away confidence in him.

It's a funny scenario, at any rate.

[batmagadanleadoff]

metirish wrote: The whole thing is stupid , Randolph surviving or getting the sack game by game or by in game decisions even , this is no way to run a club , yeah fire the coaches , big fucking deal. Either fire Randolph or come out and tell the world that he is the manager for the season

I agree. The Mets should get it over with already and fire Willie. This if he wins today he stays today approach is nuts.

metirish wrote: At times I think the Mets are as big a mess as the Knicks.

You can definitely make the case for a mess. Bad as the Knicks? I don't know but I would say that as Doubleday's influence began to diminish (beginning in '86) the Mets have been, for the most part, a dysfunctional mess of a franchise.

[Gwreck]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I agree. The Mets should get it over with already and fire Willie. This if he wins today he stays today approach is nuts.

Waitasecond, isn't this "approach" just a product of the media's propagation of rumors that his demise is imminent?

[Benjamin Grimm]

Gwreck wrote: I'm not sure what Nieto actually does or doesn't do on the team to warrant a firing... Does Nieto have any actual duties other than first base coach (and perhaps working with the catchers?)

I'm wondering the same thing.

I find it hard to see how any of the Mets current problems can be traced to Tom Nieto.

I don't like the idea of firing Peterson, but I know that there are other capable pitching coaches out there and the Mets can survive without him. But those calling for his head over Kazmir (and whatever else) are overlooking the unexpected progress of John Maine, the resurgence of Oliver Perez (which may not have had staying power), the recent emergence of Mike Pelfrey and other successes that are currently escaping my memory.

[Guest AG/DC]

I disagree that post-'86 failures, such as they were, can be traced to Doubleday's decilining role, or that Doubleday's role did, in fact, begin waning at that point.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Gwreck wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"]I agree. The Mets should get it over with already and fire Willie. This if he wins today he stays today approach is nuts. Waitasecond, isn't this "approach" just a product of the media's propagation of rumors that his demise is imminent?

Beats me. I dunno. Go ask Omar.

[Centerfield]

The rumors have been circulating for too long, and management can't affort do turn a blind eye to it any longer. Plus, they have corroborated such rumors by stating that they are evaluating things day by day etc.

At this point, they've bungled this situation to a point where an assessment given by Sell the team NOW!!!!* might actually be accurate. Willie is going to do nothing in the next 24 hours that would warrant him being retained or fired. If they've been happy with his performance, they should tell everyone to shut up and that he's here for the year. If they're unhappy, fire him now, and get this negative energy away from the team.


*Former poster who, as the name suggests, had a low opinion of ownership/management

[smg58]

I'm with CF. Either do it quickly or don't do it.

[G-Fafif]

The word "shoddy" springs to mind in all this, and it's not the first time ownership has inspired it. Really, except for those few golden years when a championship team was being built with what we assume was patience and support from the top and vision from those steering the enterprise, shoddy has been the rule more often than the exception.

Think back to Cashen trying to off Johnson in '87; Harazin kicking out Harrelson with a week to go in '91; the spectacular misreading of Torborg and Harazin's abilities; the mismatch of Green and McIlvaine; the infamous skill-sets dismissal of McIlvaine in the middle of the best season the team was enjoying in an eon; the coach massacre in '99; Phillips and Valentine being permitted to carry on a running feud; Valentine taking the fall while Phillips' team crumbled; the non-responsibility taken by everybody for Kazmir; the indecisive approach taken to trying to have both Duquette and Minaya; the abandonment of whatever team philosophy was allegedly being implemented by Duquette; the Howe is fired but not just now display at the end of '04; the press conference to announce Randolph still had a job in October '07; and now this circus of he will/he won't/he will/he won't/maybe we'll just take out Peterson and Nieto instead.

Every team has turmoil, every team has moments when people look bad. But jeez, this comes up again and again. It may not be malevolent as with the Dolans, but boy is it chronic.

The only constant for two decades is the Wilpon brand name.

[Guest AG/DC]

I think it comes up again and again with most other teams. Making personnel decisions is always hard. In public, it is always ugly.

[Benjamin Grimm]

So far nobody's tackled the question about what Nieto does, or what he's allegedly failing to do.

Anyone?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

He put that tilde on the back of his uniform when it was totally unnecessary! Fire his ass!

I remember seeing an article this spring where the org was "confident" in his ability to be the first base coach.

[G-Fafif]

AG/DC wrote: I think it comes up again and again with most other teams. Making personnel decisions is always hard. In public, it is always ugly.

Lousy trades and bad signings are a part of life. But the relationships of the owners, the GMs and the managers and how they're carried out -- does this happen like this everywhere? As frequently? There has been very little in the way of what you'd call stability with this organization. This is like Pittsburgh but with people paying attention and occasionally enough money to cover up the dysfunction.

Probably the reason 2006 seemed so glorious was that we were not only winning but not subject to whispers and rumors of backstabbing. Willie was the right choice, Omar was the right choice, Jeff was the right choice. Everything for ten minutes was going swimmingly on the field and off.

It was an oasis or perhaps a mirage.

[G-Fafif]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: So far nobody's tackled the question about what Nieto does, or what he's allegedly failing to do. Anyone?

I'm still a little ticked off that Ed Lynch couldn't retire Nieto when Nieto was a sadsack eighth-place hitter for the Cardinals in 1985, but that's more of an Ed Lynch issue.

[batmagadanleadoff]

G-Fafif wrote: The only constant for two decades is the Wilpon brand name.

Yes. The Wilpons. In 1986, the Wilpon family went from minority Mets owners to 50% equal partners with Doubleday. They did so by engaging in Macchiavellian cutthroat tactics. Under the original Doubleday/Wilpon agreement, Doubleday Publishing was the majority owner (>90% IIRC) and Wilpon was given a right of first refusal on any sale of the team. In 1986, when Doubleday Publishing decided to sell the team, Wilpon exercised his right of refusal to prevent Doubleday (the company) from selling the Mets to Doubleday (the man). It was a legally permissible use of Wilpon's right of refusal clause, even though it was used in a manner that went against Doubleday's spirit and intent. This tactic led directly to a sale and new agreement whereby Wilpon would own 50% of the Mets. Wilpon wouldn't have agreed to anything less. This was the beginning of the end of the Doubleday regime.

[Centerfield]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: So far nobody's tackled the question about what Nieto does, or what he's allegedly failing to do. Anyone?

1. Gives "5" instead of the preferred "2" like HoJo and Robinson.
2. After taking batting gloves from a baserunner, often forgets to give them back, forcing batters to frantically track him down before their next at-bat.
3. Can't remember which Carlos is which.
4. Annoys baserunners by giving the "slide" sign at first.
5. Hums a lot.
6. When asked about the number of outs responds with "How the fuck would I know? Pay attention."
7. Has inside jokes with opposing teams first-basemen.
8. Uses Street Spanish
9. Jots down how differently Bobby Valentine would have managed games then calls into WFAN as "Tommy from Queens".
10. Cannot time pitchers' delivery to the plate due to lack of proficiency with stopwatch.

[Guest themetfairy]

Centerfield wrote: ="Benjamin Grimm"]So far nobody's tackled the question about what Nieto does, or what he's allegedly failing to do. Anyone? 1. Gives "5" instead of the preferred "2" like HoJo and Robinson. 2. After taking batting gloves from a baserunner, often forgets to give them back, forcing batters to frantically track him down before their next at-bat. 3. Can't remember which Carlos is which. 4. Annoys baserunners by giving the "slide" sign at first. 5. Hums a lot. 6. When asked about the number of outs responds with "How the fuck would I know? Pay attention." 7. Has inside jokes with opposing teams first-basemen. 8. Uses Street Spanish 9. Jots down how differently Bobby Valentine would have managed games then calls into WFAN as "Tommy from Queens". 10. Cannot time pitchers' delivery to the plate due to lack of proficiency with stopwatch.

11. Borrowed Johan's soap; didn't return it.