Reyes, do you want to be a Jeter or a Rey Ordonez?

[Zvon]

*62 wrote: Good contract. Great call by Omar tabbing DW as the center of the team and not Jose.

I personally don't think Reyes will be going anywhere soon, tho I do believe he needs to mature a bit more to be able to reach his true potential.

In regards to the quote above, I have wondered if the contract status, or differential compared to Wright, has not affected Jose's attitude in some way.

I picture Ricky Henderson gettin in Reye's ear and sayin " You listen to Ricky. You make this team go, not that Wrightboy. You should be makin mo money than him. He's only makin mo cuz he's Wright. That ain't right. You listen to Ricky..."

[Guest *62]

Over his career, Jose scores almost exactly forty percent of the time he reaches base!! That's an amazing stat in and of itself.

All he needs to do is forget his home run trot and get on base and the rest will always take care of itself.

And having "the team go as Jose goes" is a dangerous proposition when the guy in question is prone to moping and regular lapses in concentration; on the field and at bat.

[metsmarathon]

*62 wrote: You could look at it that way ..... or you could also say he's the friggin' six-year incumbent starter at the position with a career OBP identical to Bud Harrelson. Perspective is all.

bud harrelson?

through the season of his 24th year, bud harrelson had a career obp of about 0.291 and an OPS+ of 68


i don't think that's a remotely fair comparison

[Guest *62]

Bud Harrelson ..... Career OBP of .327
Jose Reyes .............................. .328
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/harrebu01.shtml

And Bud had to face REAL pitching five days of five.

You're right .... no comparison. Bud wins .... fight stopped on cuts.

Is Jose's glass half full of half empty?

And why isn't it full by now?

[batmagadanleadoff]

*62 wrote: Bud Harrelson ..... Career OBP of .327 Jose Reyes .............................. .328 http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/harrebu01.shtml And Bud had to face REAL pitching five days of five.

Yup. And play in the Astrodome six games and a year, and a couple of other parks that are no longer here, having been replaced by even comfier stadiums that Reyes gets to hit in. Reyes' road games include Coors, The New Coors in Philly, and on and on, etc.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Yup. And play in the Astrodome six games....

Actually, it was nine games prior to divisional play. And then, that would also include games at Forbes Field, another tough mother of a place to hit in.

[Guest KC]

Bud's unscientific avg OBP for his first four years was about .260 -- if we're
going to start comparing the two of them -- which is kinda dumm imo.

If you could magically poll each NL team and offer them Bud at 24 or Jose
at 24 --- come on, really, who do you think they'd pick.

And for one to say they don't fret more than ten minutes after a Mets loss and
then blame Jose for the 2007 collapse makes parts of this thread seem more like
muckraking than anything else.

[Frayed Knot]

]terrible on-base percentage .... no power ....

In the interest of accuracy, his last two seasons (the ones he turned 23 & 24) have shown better than league average OBPs (.354 to .334) and Slg Avgs (.454 vs .423) ... not "terrible" and "none".

[Guest KC]

Also, who would you rather have up at bat on a carpeted Astrodome like
field? Bud or Jose? Christ, Jose could have an inside the park homer at a
joint like that every game.

[Guest AG/DC]

*62 wrote: He has played in two AS games but had only one (my words precisely) 'All-Star-caliber season'.

Yes, I can read. And you saying something is so doesn't make it so.

Two seasons like that have never happened for the Mets before. Ever.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

KC wrote: Also, who would you rather have up at bat on a carpeted Astrodome like field? Bud or Jose? Christ, Jose could have an inside the park homer at a joint like that every game.

I'd rather have Reyes who overall is like Hank Friggin' Aaron compared to Harrelson, when you take power into account. But those OBP numbers are what they are. If his OBP is equal to Harrelson's, well that's a bad thing. Plus, when you adjust, Reyes loses out some more because a .327 OBP had more value in Buddy's day.

I love rooting for Reyes, and I believe that at 24 years, there should be significant upside here. But there's also some truth to what 62 wrote about Reyes. In many ways, Reyes hasn't lived up to the hype.

On the other hand, the notion that Reyes might be costing Randolph his job is a chicken-egg sort of argument. Maybe Randolph deserves some blame for letting Reyes bat leadoff every single day in 2005 even though all signs up to that point indicated that Reyes was clueless on all matters involving strike zone judgment. Back then, he was dead in the waters once he had two strikes against him. With two strikes, he was just as likely to strike out swinging on a 50 foot curve that needed two bounces to get to the catcher as on an eye-level fast ball.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Guest

[Guest *62]

I don't dislike the guy; I root for him just as hard each and every night, just as I did for far lesser players through the years ..... his learning curve, though, has been a disappointment. That's all.

[Guest KC]

bml: >>>If his OBP is equal to Harrelson's, well that's a bad thing<<<

I'm not going to discuss it if we're not going to focus. I approximated that
Bud's OBP over his first four years was .260 and *62 said somewhere that
Jose's was ~ .330. It's not equal, it's not even close.

[Guest *62]

Kaz Matsui ...... MLB OBP ...... .325

[batmagadanleadoff]

KC wrote: I approximated that Bud's OBP over his first four years was .260 and *62 said somewhere that Jose's was ~ .330. It's not equal, it's not even close.

OK. I didn't verify anything. I saw the figures posted and assumed they were accurate. But yeah ... I see ... one OBP is career and another OBP is a first four years figure. Gotcha.

Well, I'd still rather have Reyes hitting over Buddy in The Astrodome. Snicker.

[batmagadanleadoff]

*62 wrote: Kaz Matsui ...... MLB OBP ...... .325

He was Willie's #2 batter in 2005, whenever he was healthy, to be replaced by the equally crappy Miguel Cairo as Willie's other #2 hitter. But maybe this is fodder for that Pitchfork thread that's running simultaneously with this one.

[Guest AG/DC]

Comparing a full career to a guy who is not yet 25 isn't very meaningful. Harrelson's OBP through the age of 24 was .295.

Slugging isn''t even worth crunching.

[seawolf17]

Comparing him to Harrelson, despite the team and the position, is really arbitrary. David Wright's only driven in 384 runs in his career; hell, Wayne Garrett drove in 340. The Mets have to get Wright out of there ASAP, because he's a drain on the offense.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I love rooting for Reyes, and I believe that at 24 years, there should be significant upside here. But there's also some truth to what 62 wrote about Reyes. In many ways, Reyes hasn't lived up to the hype.

="*62"]I don't dislike the guy; I root for him just as hard each and every night, just as I did for far lesser players through the years ..... his learning curve, though, has been a disappointment. That's all.

I think there's a lot of merit to this. The hype made sense; if you look at baseball-reference.com, Jose's most similar batter at age 22 was Joe Morgan, which would obviously be a best-case scenario. But by age 24, he's most similar to some guy from the 1800s. But the closest modern player, by age, to Jose is Edgar Renteria. I'd be perfectly fine with somewhere between Renteria and Morgan.

="*62"]Kaz Matsui ...... MLB OBP ...... .325

Again, an arbitrary comparison. Matsui came over here as an established hitter at 28 years old.

="Zvon"]I personally don't think Reyes will be going anywhere soon, tho I do believe he needs to mature a bit more to be able to reach his true potential. In regards to the quote above, I have wondered if the contract status, or differential compared to Wright, has not affected Jose's attitude in some way.

Knowing what we know about Jose's psyche, which, realistically, is very little, I think there might be some sense to this also.

But you know what? HE'S 24. You have to give this guy time.

[seawolf17]

For what it's worth... if you compare Jeter (96-97) and Reyes' (05-06) first two full seasons, they're surprisingly close.

They have a similarity score of 968 over those two years. The major discrepancies are in BA (Jeter .302-.286), SLG (Reyes .435-.417), SB (Reyes 124-37), and triples (Reyes 34-13). Everything else -- runs, hits, ABs, home runs, doubles, RBIs... within a few either way. Jeets hit into 27 DPs; Reyes 13. Jeets walked more (so his OBP is higher), but K'ed a LOT more.

I'll take some combination of Jeter, Renteria, and Joe Morgan, which makes a lot more statistical sense than Bud Harrelson. But thanks for trying.

[Guest AG/DC]

If the Mets had a shortstop performing like Harrelson today, he'd be grossly unpopular.

[Guest *62]

Maybe not if they had a team ERA of 2.60.

Reyes generates far more runs than Bud but, you know, the game has changed a lot in 40 years.

I swear, though, I never once saw Harrelson make a stupid play, be out of position, or look disinterested.

[Guest AG/DC]

Well, that's where perspective enters into it.

I know the game has changed, and I stand by my statement. Fans grow frustrated and they magnify perceived moral failings of players. It happes every time. And we glorify the past when the future dries up. It happens every time.

[Guest AG/DC]

Reyes makes a very good play on McCann. Position, execution, intelligence, moral rectitude. The whole nine yards.

[Guest *62]

AG/DC wrote: And we glorify the past when the future dries up.

No, you didn't

[Guest AG/DC]

Which means what?

[Guest mario25]

I love Reyes but lets face the facts....He is at times the most exciting player in the game who is electric with the bat, glove and his speed. But at other times he looks lost at the plate, doesnt seem to have a grasp on the game and just going thru the motions. Unfortunately we are seeing the bad side of Reyes at the end of last year and beginning of this year. With that said when he learns this game and matures he will be fine. I can see him being an All star for the forseeable future....give it time

[Guest *62]

Everything Jose has done to date has been based on raw physical ability. And when he put up a strong six months in 2006 I apologized to everyone who would listen on my own site.

It was a joy.

Seven months of his last nine have been either ordinary or depressing. He swung at the 1st three ptrches he saw in one AB tonight and popped up, only to be followed by Castillo, who looked at five straight pitches en route to a 7-pitch walk. And the pitcher walked three more in succession. It's a recurring theme; tired, even.

Poor Jose didn't get to play with his teammates that inning, and the contrast between he and Castillo, he and DW, is stark. What has Reyes learned, as compared to DW, about "hitting"?

He's regressing, and I have a personal issue with anyone who is 24, healthy, loved, talented, and immensely rich .... and still not happy. It starts at the top of the lineup for the Mets, even if it dies with Beltran and Delgado, and Jose is only starting to piss me off.

Beltran had better start doing some of that baseball shit, or he's next.

[Guest *62]

="AG/DC"]Which means what?

Bono?

[Guest AG/DC]

Your argument just shifts and shifts.

Find me a shortstop who is superlative every month for under $300 million and maybe we're in business.

In the meantime, that article was factually wrong seven days a week and you know it.

[Guest *62]

Yeah, he does that to me. Tonight's 'ten minutes' is up. Still a good article.

Tomorrow's another day. Go Mets! (and I won't even say "and take the Knicks with you")

Edited April 25, 2008 by Guest