2000 Revisited (Split from Thanks, Roger)

[Valadius]

We should have won that damn series.

[soupcan]

Valadius wrote: We should have won that damn series.

4 games to 1 Val. It wasn't even close.

[stevejrogers]

Close games though
4-3, 6-5, 4-2, 3-2, 4-2.

Lucky break here or there (looking right AT YOU TIMO!) who knows.

But the Mets weren't smoked or anything.

[Guest AG/DC]

Roger gets tossed like he deserved to and...

LaRussa's greater culpability is the DWI roadshow he runs.

[Guest AG/DC]

A single break more and it's 3-2.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I've been thinking a lot about that awful World Series lately. Objectively, it was one of the worst World Serieses ever. Emotionally, I hated every second of it. And I think that series was very winnable for the Mets but they fucked themselves out of it and also, had bad luck.

If Timo runs the bases like he should have, we not only win Game 1, but we win it big, by knocking out Pettitte that very inning, getting to that wobbly MFY middle relief, which was the key to beating the MFYs all year long. It would also have provided the Mets with the lead that might have withstood whatever shenanigans Franco & Benitez had in store.

I don't really beleve in momentum most of the time, but losing that game was the whole series, since everyone knew the Mets should have won it, and had to win one at MFY stadium. Knowing that was the one they could have had blanketed the whole series with doom for the Mets. They coughed up whatever momentum the gods had granted them. You knew it, I knew it, everyone knew it.

Game 2 was a disgrace. Clemens should have been ejected. The only thing that kept him in the game, and kept him from getting his face beaten in, was the fact thast his behavior was so inappropriate it took everyone a moment to process it -- what the...? -- a monent that under normal circ umstances would have featured an umpire thumbing him and ballplayers tackling him to the ground.

It was of zero help that Mike F. Hampton then went out there and Glavined his way into Met history with one of the wussiest performances I'd ever seen (2 outs, nobody on, he walks two guys and gives up 2 RBI hits. Disgusting). A less shitty performance from Hampton and we may have stolen this game given how shaky Mariano was in the 9th. At least when Leiter couldn't get the 3rd out in the 9th in Game 5 he had the excuse of having thrown 300 pitches and 8 strong innings before then.

The MFYs should also have given a WS ring to Mike Fuckyoufucking James of the Cardinals, who beaned Mike F. Bordick back in Game 1 of the NLCS immediately after serving up 2 HRs. Bordick was hit in the thumb, and couldn't hit or play defense the rest of the season. This exposed the Mets' laughable Plan B at shortstop, Kurt F. Abbott, who of course was no match for the 15-fucking hopper by Luis Eatmeyoufuckingfatprick Sojo in Game 5.

Game 3 we won. Reed was awesome. Benitez was given a 2-run lead and gave up a leadoff hit, but got through it scoreless. Anyone remember the alleged "postseason ace" we beat that day?

Game 4 we deserved to lose. Nobody expected Bobby J. Jones was gonna pull another gem out of his jock, and he didn't. But the Mets failed themselves offensively: They had Denny Neagle to kick around and didn't. They had top of the order on the 5th inning, 3rd time around on him, and couldn't do shit. Then fucking David Fucking Fuck Fucking Cone retired Piazza and you knew once again our chance and come and gone.

Game 5 we started Kurt Abbott. I suppose if Piazza got just toiny bit more of that last pitch we remember it as an alltime Met moment but instead it completely destroyed me. I hate hate hate hate hate hate the 2000 fucking world series.

[Guest AG/DC]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: At least when Leiter couldn't get the 3rd out in the 9th in Game 5 he had the excuse of having thrown 300 pitches and 8 strong innings before then.

And it was a 17 hopper that ultimately beat him, wasn't it?

OE: Mike James is a villian. Period. Oh, wait, that's the 17-hopper right there. Onward.

[soupcan]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]...that series was very winnable for the Mets but ... If Timo runs the bases like he should have... It would also have provided the Mets with the lead that might have withstood whatever shenanigans Franco & Benitez had in store. A less shitty performance from Hampton and we may have stolen this game... I suppose if Piazza got just a tiny bit more of that last pitch...

But, if, might have, may have...

Lunchy nails it. Too many of these to think that the Mets were even close to winning this.

[Guest AG/DC]

Yeah, I disagree. One more break turns around a game. Two turns around a series. The Yankees dominated nothing.

I've got to take Valentitne to task just a little bit.

1) He was relying too much on hot hands, part I. He caught his NL opponents by surprise with Timo Perez, and the bloom was off just a little bit where a touch of Hamilton and Trammell might have given Torre a little more to think about over there.

2) He was relying too much on hot hands, part II. Game 4 should have been Glendon Rusch's start. Bobby Jones was unreal in the clincher against the Giants and Valentine was hoping he had some more magic. But the Giants, apart from Bonds, were stacked with righties, and the Yankees were stacked with lefties. Rusch was the guy to go to.

3) He was fearing too much the cold hand. He'd have been killed if he went to Benitez in Game 5 and lost after Leiter had pitched so well. Fuck it. He should have anyway. They lost and Benitez gets killed for being too unreliable to go to.

4) A much much stronger demand that Clemens be ejected would have been in order, and probably would have been tolerated given the circumstances. Frank Robinson was right there in the box seats; go over and make an appeal to him. It breaks all protocol, but what the hell. Why should Clemens be the only one bringing the game into a new paradigm? Maybe pull the team off the field. Even if he only puts on a nice show and gets ejected, at least he could embarrass the Yankees further and turn the game around emotionally for manager John Stearns or Tom Robson or whoever.

Piazza did the right thing in not killing Clemens. Somebody in that dugout should have played the part of Piazza's pitbull lawyer, though.

[soupcan]

="AG/DC"]Yeah, I disagree. One more break turns around a game. Two turns around a series. The Yankees dominated nothing.

How many breaks do you want? If you needed more than one or two, that's too many to expect and/or ask for. 4 games to 1 is a dominating win. One break turns a game around maybe. It doesn't turn a series around.

Valentine's decision-making is as much a strength or weakness of a team as their catcher's offense or shortstop's defense. If the Series was lost as a result of poor managerial moves you can't say that if he had done this and not that, blah, blah, blah....

Well you can say it but it doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. He consciously made the moves he made.

[Farmer Ted]

Luis Eatmeyoufuckingfatprick Sojo

Can I PLEASE get some of this vibrant and colorful commentary on SNY?

[Guest AG/DC]

="soupcan"]How many breaks do you want?

Two. I'd gladly take one.

="soupcan"]If you needed more than one or two, that's too many to expect and/or ask for.

Well, we're good then.

I bring up Valentine as a seperate point related to that series.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I think the 2000 World Series cured me of taking too much to heart.

I mean, I was just devastated by Game 1. Tortured.

When they blew it this September I was fine by comparison.

[Frayed Knot]

I remember making a post (back in the old MoFo days) on all 11 games the Mets & Yanx played that season: 6 reg season + 5 WS

- The first two were blow-outs (1 each way) but then the remaining 9 were all 1 & 2 run games with us coming out on the short end in 7 of them.

- and as if that wasn't bad enough, we out-hit and/or out-baserunnered them in many of those 7 only to get out-scored as the MFYs managed to infuriatingly bunch theirs all in one inning

It's not that we deserved to win, it's just that virtually everything that could go wrong did that whole fucking year.

[Benjamin Grimm]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]I think the 2000 World Series cured me of taking too much to heart. I mean, I was just devastated by Game 1. Tortured. When they blew it this September I was fine by comparison.

I know how you feel. My cure came earlier, though, during the 1988 NLCS.

2000 didn't torture me, and neither did 2007.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

To be objective the MFYs did 4 outstanding things in that series, 3 of them in Game 1:

1) Jeter's relay throw on the Timo play. Hate to say it but if not executed well, we get away with it.

2) O'Neill's AB vs. Benitez in Game 1. Fouled off a million pitches and reached base. Small props to AB for losing him this way rather than a HR, tho he wound up scoring anyway.

3) Vizcainio's hit vs. Wendell in game 1. Again, 2 outs.

4) I forget the 4th.

[Gwreck]

Jeter's leadoff homer in Game 4 was the 4th thing.

Remember how we felt when Reyes did the same thing in NLCS Game 6 in 2006? Same deal.

[metirish]

Great summary up top Bucket, just how I remember it going or should have went.

I'd only been a fan a few years but that series loss was heartbreaking for me.

[Gwreck]

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]I mean, I was just devastated by Game 1. Tortured. When they blew it this September I was fine by comparison.

I could adopt this statement as my own. I still haven't fully recovered from that loss.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Getting baack to Grimm's comments, yes, 1988 was bad too, but IMO, 1985 might have been worse. Plus, to me 88 and 99 were different eras. I'd briefly broken up with baseball in the inbetween, so it was like a whole different experience.

And about Valentine: I remember being of the mind that Rusch was a good thing to have in the event that Jones went bad. But nobody thought Jones was going to be good. That of coyurse was the other reason we needed to win one of those early games -- we knew that we'd be giving away at least one matchup down the line.

Trammell had a great series in limited appearances. And Zeile was the Man. I remember thinking when Piazza batted in Game 5 that if he wasn't gonna hit one out, the best he could do was extend the inning for Zeile, who just might. Zeile really caame to play.

[Guest themetfairy]

The 2000 WS hurt, but I was so proud of those guys for getting that far that it wasn't devastating. The 2007 collapse was fugly, but I got over that (it helped that the MFYs and the Phillies lost quickly in their divisional series). But nothing compares to shit in my real life that I've had to deal with - I love the Mets dearly, but I can take a step back from them when necessary.

[Guest AG/DC]

1985 was awesome.

19 19 1985 is the reason baseball is better without multi-tiered playoff tournaments. In 1985, all of September was like the playoffs.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I agree. 1985 was the most exciting season I've ever lived through. Even though it didn't have a happy ending, I have nothing but fond memories of that year.

[Centerfield]

Who cares. They fucking lost.

[Benjamin Grimm]

It's not about the destination, it's about the ride.

Otherwise we could just ignore them all year and check next year's World Almanac and Book of Facts to see whether or not the Mets won the World Series.

[Valadius]

I was at Game 1. Fucking Benitez ruined everything.

I'm just wondering if we would've won had the 2000 Skankees not been all juiced up. Especially in the case of Clemens. I mean, think about it. The series was so close that a couple of runs going the other way would have resulted in our winning it.

[Benjamin Grimm]

And you're assuming that none of our guys were juiced?

[Valadius]

Less of them were. And none of them played particularly large roles.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Which ones were and which ones weren't, and how do you know?

[Guest AG/DC]

Valadius wrote: I was at Game 1. Fucking Benitez ruined everything.

Timo Perez went 0-6. Perez, Alfonzo, Piazza, and Ventura went 2-22 combined.

Baseball is hard. Closer-baiting stnks.