Hershiser critical of John Maine

[Benjamin Grimm]

Anybody hear what Orel Hershiser was saying on ESPN about John Maine?

Interesting stuff. Maine, basically, doesn't have the "eye of the tiger."

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Well, yeah. He doesn't play in Detroit.

[Zvon]

Ha...and Hersh did?

When I saw him peering in I saw the eyes of a boyscout.

[Elster88]

I expect that type of dumb shit from Rob Dibble.

[Valadius]

Dusty Baker, who knows something about baseball, is saying very nice things about Maine.

On edit: I'm Todd Pratt. Watch me hit a series-winning home run.

[Benjamin Grimm]

="Zvon"]Ha...and Hersh did? When I saw him peering in I saw the eyes of a boyscout.

Hershiser very much did. There was a lot of confidence in his eyes.

I think Hershiser may have a point.

[TransMonk]

Agreed...with Smoltz on the other side, the contrast in demeanor was stark.

Hershiser was on him for looking blank and lacking both confidence and concentration when he was struggling in the 4th, both on the mound and trying to get the bunt down at the plate.

I see what Orel is getting at and it's really, IMO, a back-handed compliment to John Maine's stuff. If he ever gets his confidence behind his arm, he could be a superstar.

[Zvon]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Hershiser very much did. There was a lot of confidence in his eyes.

Is that what a tiger has in his eyes?
I thought they had meaness, coldness, ruthlessness, and your ultimate demise.

Hey, boyscouts can be confident.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Get confident, Stupid.

[Elster88]

TransMonk wrote: Agreed...with Smoltz on the other side, the contrast in demeanor was stark.

Who was in line for the win again?

[Zvon]

I do concur that there is a good point here.

That playoff spot in the rotation.....this is going to be very interesting.

And Perez may just get it because of his crazy eyes that can convey "watch out, I dont know just where this ball is gonna go."
If I was facing the Mets from the batters box, going by looks alone, Perez would scare the shit outta me.

[Elster88]

I'm not surprised.

[TransMonk]

Elster88 wrote: ="TransMonk"]Agreed...with Smoltz on the other side, the contrast in demeanor was stark. Who was in line for the win again?

At that point, neither one of them because the game was tied.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

JD - "Get confident, Stupid."

It's cahnnnfidence.

[metirish]

Valadius wrote: Dusty Baker, who knows something about baseball, is saying very nice things about Maine. On edit: I'm Todd Pratt. Watch me hit a series-winning home run.

Baker says nice things about anyone in baseball,I would agree that Maine seems to lose focus at times and I think as Peterson would say that's the mental side that he needs to work on.Maine certainly had the "eye of the tiger" last post-season.


When he puts it all together he is capable of winning twenty games.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

="Valadius"]Dusty Baker, who knows something about baseball

Huhwha?!

[Guest Edgy DC]

We kind of retrofit substatntial meaining into people's faces when the results aren't going so well, don't we? Then we come up with moral reasons why they failed and feel superior.

Nobody looked more whiney and hurt to me than Ron Darling taking the ball after an extra-base hit. Now he's got the reputation of a gamer who knew how to bear down.

Maybe he's a buldog. Maybe a lapdog. I don't know. More data needed.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I haven't been doing it as much lately, but years ago, when a pitcher was in a jam I'd look at his eyes to get a sense of how things would turn out. It wasn't infallible, of course, but in 1985, you'd see fire in Doc Gooden's eyes when he had runners on base. A few years earlier, when Mike Scott was pitching for the Mets, you'd see fear.

It sounds like Orel Hershiser was seeing indifference in Maine's eyes. (And this wasn't a retrofitting thing, it was while Maine was on the mound.)

Hershiser did a lot of reading of body language during that telecast. He compared Maine's dazed indifference to Jose Reyes' determination at the plate. He said that even though Reyes has been slumping, there was no change to his attitude.

He also pointed out how Willie Randolph gave Maine a cold shoulder when he returned to the dugout after failing to bunt a runner over. Maine walked right past Willie and Willie never even gave him a glance.

I thought it was pretty interesting.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Oh, and I should point out that Hershiser never said "eye of the tiger." I have to take responsibility for introducing that term into the conversation, and if it makes Hershiser's observations seem stupid, that's my own fault. Shortly after I started that post my daughter started demanding my attention, so I used "eye of the tiger" to quickly (and poorly) wrap up my point.

[seawolf17]

That was always part of my knock on Benitez, and part of my current knock on Mota. It seems like once they give up a hit, you can see them go to hell just by looking at them.

(FWIW, that's my wife's problem with Aaron Heilman, too, although I don't see it.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

The ratio of people seeing things going to Hell in Benitez's appearance to things actually going to Hell is large.

Maine gave up one run on three hits in six innings matched up against a Hall of Fame pitcher going for a team trying desperately to climb back into the pennant race, while he himself was pitching with a spot in the postseason rotation on the line. He must have had something in his belly, whatever Hershiser saw in his face.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Guest

[Benjamin Grimm]

Exactly. That's why I'm not wholesale agreeing with Orel. I don't recall if Maine's expression was any different in NLCS Game 6 than it was yesterday. Some people's eyes mirror the soul more accurately than others. Maine may be one of those others.

Hershiser was really hammering the point, so he clearly puts a lot into this. He's a smart guy, and I thought it was an interesting perspective.

[metirish]

Tom Glavine betrays hardly any emotion on the mound,perhaps Maine is like him in that respect ,Clemens meanwhile shows emotion with the stare and grimace and that works for him,really I think Orel is reading into the eyes too much.

[Willets Point]

Heh-heh, his name is Orel.

[TransMonk]

What I got out of it was not necessarily the portrayal of emotion that John Maine was showing, but the lack of confidence in his body lanuguage.

When John Smoltz gets into trouble. His demeanor and body lanuguage still suggests, "OK, hitter. This is my best stuff. Hit it if you can. I dare you."

John Maine tends to non-verbally express, "OK, hitter. This is my best stuff. You can probably hit it. I hope you don't."

It's not about talent. John Maine pitched well last night. But there is that certain vibe that bonafide top-of-the-rotation starters give that I'm not sure John Maine has yet. I would believe that good, experienced hitters can tell when a pitcher doesn't believe in his stuff as much as he should and they may be able to exploit that. Or worse, the pitcher starts playing confidence games in his own head.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Once upon a time, wasn't the party line on Maine that his stuff wasn't as good as some others, but his poise and intellignece and maturity on the mound made up for that?

I don't get how he has a bad month, and now he's a guy with the stuff and not the poise.

[metirish]

Yes indeed and some talk about Maine being the one to go to the pen if he's not in the post-season rotation because he can be trusted more than say Perez who might be deemed too erratic for the pen,Miane has the stuff and head for the pen duty according to some in the meadia.

[TransMonk]

That was not a party line I was ever a part of. Poise is not one of the first 100 words I would associate with John Maine. Intelligence and maturity, sure. But to me he's looked like a scared little puppy on the mound almost his entire Mets career.

I'm not knocking the guy. I don't think Orel was as much as the title of this thread suggests either. He's young and with experience this side of the game should come.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Various sources on the Interweb:

July 26, 2006:

Maine has sported a live low-90s fastball, a major-league curve, and a changeup. With a few starts under his belt, he is showing the poise and confidence he lacked shortly after his call-up.

October 12, 2006:

Hot Foot has transcribed John Maine�s interview with Mike & The Mad Dog this afternoon on WFAN.

�mike was impressed with maine�s

poise

and how unflappable he seemed to be�

October 19, 2006:

"Maine had the

poise

of a Hall of Fame-type pitcher," said Green, who drove in the Mets' second run in the fourth with a single following singles by Beltran and Wright.

January 4, 2007:

Posted by Mike Steffanos

John Maine exudes a great confidence when he takes the mound. He has command of the strike zone and seems to know how to keep balls in play giving his defense a chance to field them. He also seems to know how and when to rear back and get a strikeout. He is a cerebral athlete that keeps his composure well. But best of all Mike, he plays Sudoku when he is not pitching. I know personally that playing Sudoku regularly has really made me a calmer individual and has improved my work performance and

poise

. It may sound silly, but Maine seems committed to a Maddux-like near emotionless approach to pitching; and it will only serve to benefit his career and maximize his talent.

June 21 2007:

The thing I am most impressed with him, is his

poise

. I get to see him every 5th day, so most Met fans will understand what I am saying. He never get's to high or low, always seems cool & within himself. (A lot of stuff there about his stuff or lack of stuff also..)

July 27, 2006:

The New York fans have completely fallen in love with our proud alum. He's seen as an anti-A Rod - they really appreciate his lack of an ego, his

poise

, and his ability to come up big in tough situations.

July 2, 2007:

Another product of the great Rick Peterson, John Maine has been beyond impressive in 2007. Maine has risen to the competition in each instance and pitched with

poise

and a wealth of calmness, never rattled by his own or his teammates� mistakes. Perhaps his best examples are in-game adjustments when he hasn�t had his best stuff. He trusts his pitches, trusts his catcher and trusts his defense.

July 29, 2007:

There is no situation that seems to effectively shake the confident

poise

of the Virginia native.

Yeah, a lot of that is from the blogosphere, and nobody complains more than I do when a white player succeeds and is credited with moral virtues while a non-white one succeeds and is credited merely with physical ones, but as cynical as I am of his poise getting so much credit when he's going well, I'm equally cynical of his poise called into question when he's had a crap month the way he has.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Guest

[Valadius]

Interesting tidbit from last night - I think it was Dusty Baker who said that when he throws down in the strike zone, he's "nasty", but when his pitches get up, he becomes hittable.