Ankiel and HGH

[Valadius]

Show me evidence that he's used it this year. Back then, technically he wasn't breaking any rules. It kinda leaves a smudge on the comeback story for me, but it's still a pretty good feel-good story in my mind. Stuff that happened three years ago really doesn't ruin it for me.

[soupcan]

Valadius wrote: Show me evidence that he's used it this year. Back then, technically he wasn't breaking any rules. It kinda leaves a smudge on the comeback story for me, but it's still a pretty good feel-good story in my mind. Stuff that happened three years ago really doesn't ruin it for me.

Rules, no.

Laws, um, yup.

[Guest Edgy DC]

He was purchasing illegally distributed rescription drugs. That may be no big deal for you, but on Cops, people get arrested at Rite Aid for that sort of thing.

Why people want to squeeze things through on technicalities disaapoints me. This is the court of personal opinion. We don't owe them any such benefit.

[nymr83]

illegal is WORSE than banned by baseball.

were greenies illegal in Aaron's day? they weren't banned by baseball. and if the answer is no then he was operating within both the law and the rules of the game so he's no cheater. Bonds is.

[Valadius]

Oh, now I see - this is connected to the Rodney Harrison thing.

Ok, that makes it much worse, in terms of how you judge him as a person. Still, I give him credit for all the years he spent trying to come back. Many people simply would've given up after totally flaming out like he did. It takes guts to to try something different, knowing it could take years, to make it back.

[metirish]

Well when you put it like that Val then it's perfectly understandable that AnKiel would cheat and lie.


I feel bad for being down on him now.

[stevejrogers]

Looks like Troy Glaus is also in the same hot water!

[Guest Edgy DC]

]The prescribing physician was Ramon Scruggs, M.D. According to the Medical Board of California, as of March 2007, Scruggs has been on probation and is prohibited from prescribing drugs over the internet. He also was reportedly involved in a lawsuit with Mobile-based Applied Pharmacy, which, ironically, was the subject of a previous multi-agency raid.

That's not that ironic

](Contacted through New Hope and given the chance to comment on Friday, Scruggs responded with expletives and ended the conversation abruptly.)

Wow.

[Benjamin Grimm]

A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally."

[stevejrogers]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally."

Ironically =

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally."

My biggest peeve, bar nothing.

[metsmarathon]

oh, how i love the argument that illegal = cheating.

most of football, hockey, boxing, and much of basketball is illegal. in fact, throwing a baseball at a grown man is assault. hitting him is battery. running into a crowd to participate in a shoving match can get you arrested as well.

and i've never heard of anybody getting arrested for putting cork into a piece of maple, or scuffing up a toy.

if hgh wasn't banned by baseball, then taking it didn't make you a cheater. steroids, otoh, were banned by baseball - i'm pretty sure - and have been for a while. they just hadn't been tested for.

that doesn't mean that just because something isn't banned that it's not bad for your, or terrible for you even, or something you'd hate to see your high school kids taking to get an edge on the competition. it just means that taking it isn't cheating.

if they decided tomorrow that drinking gatorade is to be banned in baseball, would those players who took it before it became banned be called cheaters? nope.

only if and when baseball and other sports adopt a policy like the olympics, where if they test you, and find something that isn't currently banned, but int he future it is banned, they can strip your accomplishments, can you state that taking hgh when it wasn't banned is cheating.

if a guy's getting percosets on the side, is he cheating too?

i mean, was keith hernandez cheating when he was snorting coke? or was he just breaking the law?

[nymr83]

illegal does = cheating, but cheating need not = illegal.

] mean, was keith hernandez cheating when he was snorting coke? or was he just breaking the law?

breaking the law and cheating if it was enhancing his performance, just like baseball doesnt need to say "don't take a knife and stab the pitcher to increase your performance" they also don't have to say "don't snort coke" its already illegal, baseball does not need to go out and delineate all the illegal things you can't do, only the legal ones that are against baseball's rules.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm going to more or less agree there, and disagree with marathon.

Taking illegal action for an edge is cheating. Boxing is not illegal, because, while it's pugilism, it's not legal battery, because the boxers' licenses and the promoter's sanctions exempt their punches from legal recourse. Baseball holds no such exemption for use of HGH.

[metsmarathon]

if keith was taking coke because he felt it gives him an edge, does it then make it cheating?

if ankiel/glaus were taking hgh for legit doctor-prescribed reasons, would it still be cheating?

because in the olympics, it still would be. if its banned, then no matter how you get it, its cheating if you do it. legal, doctor-prescribed, or produced in a meth lab, if its on the list and you take it, then you are cheating.

is laser eye surgery cheating? is it cheating if you do it illegally, or without real need, just to improve performance? (like, i guess, if your eyes are already 20-20, and a doctor isn't willing to give you 20-15 cos your eyes are good enough, but you pay him a ton of money and he does it anyways...)

if i'm a ballplayer, and i'm feeling a bit under the weather, and i illegally obtain prescription strength sudafed, and it makes me better, am i a cheater?

to cheat, you have to break the rules of the activity in which you are engaged. if there is no rule to cover what you are doing, is it really cheating? or are you innovative?

and that of course is not to say that i endorse finding the gaps in the established rules, or putting weird and wacky substances into your body because you think they might help you even though they might also hurt you, and hey, they're not on the banned list.

and that doesn't make it good, right, healthy, or sportsmanlike. it just doesn't earn him the label of "cheater"

to get that, you have to break the rules.

[metirish]

Jay Gibbons is the latest player tied to hGH.

Gibbons

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

This from Jayson Stark: "So fine. If we don't give a hoot about Guillermo Mota almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series just days after testing positive, then why should we care about what some down-and-out, rehabbing, faded star did in 2004, when he was just trying to stay in baseball?"

Was a middle reliever really "almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series?"

I know he pitched well, but this seems like a bit of a stretch.

[Guest Edgy DC]

metsmarathon wrote: if keith was taking coke because he felt it gives him an edge, does it then make it cheating? if ankiel/glaus were taking hgh for legit doctor-prescribed reasons, would it still be cheating? because in the olympics, it still would be. if its banned, then no matter how you get it, its cheating if you do it. legal, doctor-prescribed, or produced in a meth lab, if its on the list and you take it, then you are cheating. is laser eye surgery cheating? is it cheating if you do it illegally, or without real need, just to improve performance? (like, i guess, if your eyes are already 20-20, and a doctor isn't willing to give you 20-15 cos your eyes are good enough, but you pay him a ton of money and he does it anyways...) if i'm a ballplayer, and i'm feeling a bit under the weather, and i illegally obtain prescription strength sudafed, and it makes me better, am i a cheater? to cheat, you have to break the rules of the activity in which you are engaged. if there is no rule to cover what you are doing, is it really cheating? or are you innovative? and that of course is not to say that i endorse finding the gaps in the established rules, or putting weird and wacky substances into your body because you think they might help you even though they might also hurt you, and hey, they're not on the banned list. and that doesn't make it good, right, healthy, or sportsmanlike. it just doesn't earn him the label of "cheater" to get that, you have to break the rules.

That's a lot of questions. Taking HGH is and was cheating and the guys who did it knew they were cheating when they did it. Their attitude may well have been that everybody does it, but they knew what they were doing. It cheats opponents, cheats history, and cheats the presumably two or three honest athletes who didn't get a chance because they played clean.

I don't know why you're working so hard to split hairs on behalf of scoundrels and their behavior. Check out that Princeton University definition of "unsportsmanlike."

[Guest Edgy DC]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: This from Jayson Stark: "So fine. If we don't give a hoot about Guillermo Mota almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series just days after testing positive, then why should we care about what some down-and-out, rehabbing, faded star did in 2004, when he was just trying to stay in baseball?" Was a middle reliever really "almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series?" I know he pitched well, but this seems like a bit of a stretch.

I did give a hoot. Two hoots at least. Still do.

[metsmarathon]

how do you feel about lasik?

actually, how do you feel about the colored contact lenses that nike unveiled two years ago to some media fanfare?

if the mlb were now to ban those colored contact lenses, were the players who used to wear them cheating? cheaters?

if the mlb were to ban maple bats, would the many players now using them be cheating? cheaters?

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't know what you're talking about. Which of those things were criminal?

[metsmarathon]

if its illegal, why do they have to ban it?

[Guest Edgy DC]

To underscore it, to speak out more strongly against it, to clarify what the penalties are, and to avoid people wasting their time trying to hide behind the ridiculous argument you're putting forward.

Is Tonya Harding not a cheater, because the US Figure Skating Association never explictly outlawed contracting an attack on a rival's knee?

What's lasik got to do with anything?

[metsmarathon]

i don't know anymore. i'm trying to split a hair too thin.