Going down the "Baseball is dying" path (split)

[nymr83]

theres no smoke and mirrors, the numbers are up and you simply don't like it. take away the biggest 7 teams, as you would have us do, in the NBA and they wouldnt look too hot either, do it in the NHL and they'd look like a ghosttown. and if its just about the big markets how have revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure?

I don't know why you want to see baseball die but its NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

[Guest Edgy DC]

Did the Kansas City As and Cleveland Indians of the fifties outdraw their counterparts of the contemporary era?

And why discount cities with new ballparks? Isn't that part of what they're selling? A lot of the teams in the sports that are threatening to take baseball's lunch are playing in new homes also.

[metirish]

A full report....

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2000-03attendance.htm

[Willets Point]

Edgy DC wrote: But it's going to take at least a dozen warheads to take out those cities, Steve.

POTD.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

"53 Football fans tailgate before the big game. No baseball fan would have a picnic in a parking lot."

Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post apparently never met this crew.

[metsmarathon]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="martin"] arent the attendance numbers for baseball rising? Take away the big markets and the increase really is "smoke and mirrors" Look at my Philly example somewhere in this thread. NO ONE was going to the ballpark to see the Phils this past September when they were in the middle of a "down to the final day" chase for the wild card, with Ryan Howard making a charge for 50+ homers, and they entered September with a sliver of hope of catching the Mets. Reverse the situation, Shea is PACKED 55,000 strong every night, no one is paying attention to the start of the Giants and Jets untill after the Mets just run out of time on the last day of the season.

good gravy, steve, what the fuck games were you looking at?

behold, a breakdown of mets and phillies attendance, both home and away, for the september of 2006.

		mets	mets	phillies	phillies
		home	road	home	road
Friday	1-Sep		35,548	31,717
Saturday	2-Sep		43,218	28,600
Sunday	3-Sep		43,018	37,044
Monday	4-Sep	42,428		44,674
Tuesday	5-Sep
Wednesday	6-Sep	40,536		33,521
Thursday	7-Sep	48,583			12,712
Friday	8-Sep	52,077			21,432
Saturday	9-Sep	47,064			27,444
Sunday	10-Sep	48,760			20,308
Monday	11-Sep		13,725
Tuesday	12-Sep		15,163
Wednesday	13-Sep		20,225		22,239
Thursday	14-Sep				19,346
Friday	15-Sep		24,410		41,432
Saturday	16-Sep		37,623		41,002
Sunday	17-Sep		34,866		41,170
Monday	18-Sep	46,729		31,101
Tuesday	19-Sep	42,407		31,892
Wednesday	20-Sep	37,911		35,269
Thursday	21-Sep	44,966
Friday	22-Sep	42,788		44,737
Saturday	23-Sep	45,245		37,055
Sunday	24-Sep	44,543		44,772
Monday	25-Sep	34,027		44,688
Tuesday	26-Sep		22,607		18,960
Wednesday	27-Sep		23,177		21,809
Thursday	28-Sep		22,944		18,324
Friday	29-Sep		27,805		23,417
Saturday	30-Sep		30,449		20,992
Sunday	1-Oct		29,044		36,768
	average	44,147	28,255	37,089	25,824

the only time the cbp went empty was when the phillies were out of town. they averaged 37,000 fans per home game in september! no, they didnt match the draw of superduper-big-market team the mets, but, damn, 37,000! that ain't empty, dude. is it too much to ask that you check your own damned facts?

]Baseball attendance is pure smoke and mirrors. Take out NY, take out Boston, take out LA/Anaheim, take out Chicago and you have a House Of Cards.

steve, do me (us) a favor. look at the trend for the attendance at ALL teams, and then come back to this point. given how ludicrous your assertion about the phillies are, i hesitate to give you any amount of credence on the attendance figures around the rest of baseball.

[stevejrogers]

Nymr83 wrote: theres no smoke and mirrors, the numbers are up and you simply don't like it. take away the biggest 7 teams, as you would have us do, in the NBA and they wouldnt look too hot either, do it in the NHL and they'd look like a ghosttown.

Thats my point about baseball. No one is saying the NBA and NHL are back, though the NBA is getting some press, though its more of a "We WANT a NBA renisssance" kind of way

]revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure

Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing.

Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income.

Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports.

Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers"

ect...

[nymr83]

in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide.

[metirish]

] Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing

I have a black Mets Uni..Martinez....I am not a hip-hop wannabe...and I think I know a bit about the sport..Steve you just keep beating the horse..it used to be amazing but not anymore.

[nymr83]

]Quote: revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing. and you expext that in our material culture there won't be some new fad that the teams will all pick up on to boost revenue every few years? Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income. please show me that every other business into which Americans can drop their disposable income has shown the same increase, otherwise this argument has no basis Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports. if its "entrenched" then it definetaly is not dying, which is it? Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers" if there really are "suckers" now then i'm sure there will be more later. ect... Bec

edited to avoid the RLF.

[stevejrogers]

Nymr83 wrote: in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide.

Okay, so why by the same token can they never get a new domed stadium pushed through.

Using your logic the Marlins should never have been born.

Come to think of it, that really has been one of baseball's problems, like the NHL they over-expanded.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Baseball's success is illusory due to its entrenchedness and its faddishness.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The issue isn't the Marlins, Steve.

Let it go.

[metsmarathon]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Nymr83"]in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide. Okay, so why by the same token can they never get a new domed stadium pushed through. Using your logic the Marlins should never have been born. Come to think of it, that really has been one of baseball's problems, like the NHL they over-expanded.

using your logic, because the marlins don't draw, the league is doomed.

i don't see it.

[stevejrogers]

]and you expext that in our material culture there won't be some new fad that the teams will all pick up on to boost revenue every few years?

Of course there will, I'm saying that was one of the factors in the increase of revenue streams.

]Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income. please show me that every other business into which Americans can drop their disposable income has shown the same increase, otherwise this argument has no basis

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the economy actually boomed within the last ten years?

]Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports. if its "entrenched" then it definetaly is not dying, which is it?

Where are the drive thru theatres? Do you see and soda/candy shops around? How about the theatre itself? Outside of the bigger Broadway shows of course? Did you know Horse Racing at a time was actually just as big as baseball, and just as entrenched?

I never said MLB baseball would die out completely, I mean the NHL, MLS and WNBA are still in operation and all, I'm just saying that people are wrong in thinking A) it will ever retake the top spot and that it's current standing is secure and there will be a time where it will no longer be in the top ten in terms of sports.

]Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers" if there really are "suckers" now then i'm sure there will be more later.

I don't doubt that, that's kind of the point.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: And why discount cities with new ballparks? Isn't that part of what they're selling? A lot of the teams in the sports that are threatening to take baseball's lunch are playing in new homes also.

Because it's an artifical spike. Because it's cause for those to say "Oh, something new, lets check it out" Basically they become tourist traps

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Baseball's success is illusory due to its entrenchedness and its faddishness.

Again, it's a "safe" sport (if you know what I mean) to bring your kids up on, and that accounts for sheltered suburbanites bringing their family of 4 to games despite the fact that they are the ones complaining about every little thing from lousy parking to the fact that it costs over a hundred bucks by the time they get home and all. In the meantime they think they are bonding with their kids with something that they want to believe was golden back in their youth.

And yes, baseball is very much a trend follower. Why do you think most MLB stadiums sound more like NBA arenas every night? Why do you think you see teams go to colors that are more marketable, and go to colors that never have been seen on an actual field.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: The issue isn't the Marlins, Steve. Let it go.

Okay, then lets go a little north and explain why the Braves never sold out an NLDS game?

[metsmarathon]

my head hurts from all of this. if the braves never sell out NLDS games, tehn they're static, and aren't gettingany worse are they? no problem there then.

and now, baseball is both too entrenched and stale, and too trendy and faddish. pick your poison.

i guess you're convinced that you've seen the canary in the coal mine, and its all around you, and its dropped dead.

but for all your screaming about the peril that baseball is in, i don't see the nfl capable of sustaining a team in los freakin' angeles, the second biggest market in the country! and college football and nascar have no traction in the biggest market in the country, new york! middle america doesn't, for the most part, make the trends - its so cal and new york that establishes the trends that the rest of the country tries to catch up on. and there, baseball is doin' just fine.

but, gosh, how can baseball survive for itself? since you are so acutely aware of baseball's problems, how would you fix it?

[nymr83]

]I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the economy actually boomed within the last ten years?

not to the extent that baseball revenue has boomed, and most other entertainment industries have likely not seen the same jump either.

]I never said MLB baseball would die out completely, I mean the NHL, MLS and WNBA are still in operation and all, I'm just saying that people are wrong in thinking A) it will ever retake the top spot and that it's current standing is secure and there will be a time where it will no longer be in the top ten in terms of sports.

I agree that it is unlikely to surpass the NFL in the next few decades, but that is hardly a deathknell or a problem for hte sport at all.

no longer in the top 10? you're a moron. i have a "bet" for you... pay me $1,000 every january 1st that baseball is in the top 10, if it ever falls out of the top 10 i'll pay you back everything you've given me to date and then start paying you $1,000 a year.

[Frayed Knot]

If you're going to attempt to construct some sort of logical argument you're going to have to stay away from your strategy of "proof" by selectively choosing those individual anecdotes which fit your pre-determined conclusion - especially when many of them aren't close to accurate.
If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player.

indeed.
i can't prove it, but i'd guess that baseball fans can name the rest of the league's lineups better than football fans can.

[Guest patona314]

i have never seen such a simple question get so complicated outside of my marriage:

so baseball is dieing?... NOT.. we're #2 in the country behind the NFL in terms of revenue, not viewership.

baseball might never be the #1 "important" sport ever again in the U.S of A, but it will always be the most watched. it's inevitable just by how many games are played and how many teams there are.

so many things work against baseball and it still prospers. when was the last time anyone in this forum drove a change up into right-center? i don't think i ever did that.

let me asked you folks somes questions. all of which are negatives toward developing baseball players in our lovely country but still, baseball prospers socially and financially:

soccer?

lacrosse?

basketball from the urban standpoint?

chlidren training for one sport all year round as opposed to when i grew up where we played everything?

i'm sure there are many other, please list them.

maybe things go this way because baseball is a hard game to play well. this is why i moved on to softball many moons ago.

baseball will never die and will always be strong. mindless people who never played the game "well" will only criticize it...... but still watch the game.

[stevejrogers]

]my head hurts from all of this. if the braves never sell out NLDS games, tehn they're static, and aren't gettingany worse are they? no problem there then.

Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? Last I checked the Yanks have made postseason play every year since 1995.

]and now, baseball is both too entrenched and stale, and too trendy and faddish. pick your poison.

No, it's the "safe" choice and read between the lines there.

]but, gosh, how can baseball survive for itself? since you are so acutely aware of baseball's problems, how would you fix it?

Well for starters I'll piss off the union but A) retraction is a MUST, and so is MANDTORY HGH testing along with the current drug policy.

Insert salery cap, actually make cosmetic changes to make baseball less "boring" and more "appealing" to the ADD mass population (i.e. no more in-at bat rituals, less pickoff moves, ect)

[stevejrogers]

Nymr83 wrote: ="Frayed Knot"] If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player. indeed. i can't prove it, but i'd guess that baseball fans can name the rest of the league's lineups better than football fans can.

Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out

[Frayed Knot]

]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October?

No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too.
Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly!

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: ]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too. Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly!

Different time, different era in terms of use of discretionary income.

Also wasn't that low attendance often attributed to it being one of the High Holy Days for the Jewish faith?

[nymr83]

]Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out

i agree that interleague has gotten old fast, but thats not much of huge problem, and theres "interleague" in football too.

[Guest patona314]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Frayed Knot"] ]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too. Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly! Different time, different era in terms of use of discretionary income. Also wasn't that low attendance often attributed to it being one of the High Holy Days for the Jewish faith?

Gary Matthew Jr.'s new contract is good evidence that baseball is alive and well.

[stevejrogers]

Nymr83 wrote: ]Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out i agree that interleague has gotten old fast, but thats not much of huge problem, and theres "interleague" in football too.

AHHHH! But in football, do the fans really care who the other team is? Unless it's one of the top teams in that confrence, generally they are there for the party type atmosphere of a Football Sunday (or Monday or Thursday or whatever)

Different attitude, and yes that means it really doesn't matter if a Giant fan can't name all the Ravens backfield, but it really does matter that a Yankee fan wouldn't know Todd Helton from Sweeny Todd.