Hot Stove League

[nymr83]

LaRoche is 27 years old, he's played the last 2 full seasons and alot of 2004. he has a .274/.337/.504 (114 ops+) career line which was .285/.354/.561 (133 ops+) this past season (for comparison, Delgado was .265/.361/.548, a 134 ops+ this past year.)

Gonzalez is 28, he's thrown 155.7 innings in his career with 116 hits, 74 walks, 183 k's, a 2.37 ERA and a 1.221 WHIP. good numbers for a young relief pitcher, but I still have to question giving up LaRoche to get him.

The braves had already traded Horacio Ramirez for Rafael Soriano, who is imo better than Gonzalez.

Lillibridge's stats are indeed impressive, and its nice to see that the mid-season move from low-a to high-a didn't hurt his OBP (though his power suffered.) I am a bit concerned about the 104 strikeouts (I don't mind strikeouts from major leaguers, an out is an out, but from guys in the low minors the inability to make contact against that level of pitching leaves me with concerns about what will happen to them at higher levels.)

[nymr83]

the Braves have signed ex-Pirate Craig Wilson for 1 year and $2 million dollars. I still don't like their trade, but it makes alot more sense now.

Wilson, who is 29, hit pretty well for Pit last year, but was a bust sitting the Yankee bench. his overall line was .251/.314/.446, his 2005 line was .264/.387/.421 in ~250 PA. his 6-year career line is .265/.354/.480 with a 115 OPS+.

He's not the hitter LaRoche is, but its a good signing.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think the Bravos also like the minor league shortstop they got.

[duan]

Edgy DC wrote: I think the Bravos also like the minor league shortstop they got.

23/24 and high A ball, mean that he's got a way to go yet.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Doesn't mean they don't also like him.

[smg58]

Nymr83 wrote: the Braves have signed ex-Pirate Craig Wilson for 1 year and $2 million dollars. I still don't like their trade, but it makes alot more sense now. Wilson, who is 29, hit pretty well for Pit last year, but was a bust sitting the Yankee bench. his overall line was .251/.314/.446, his 2005 line was .264/.387/.421 in ~250 PA. his 6-year career line is .265/.354/.480 with a 115 OPS+. He's not the hitter LaRoche is, but its a good signing.

That's great value. For that price he'd have made an excellent platoon with Green, and could conceivably have beaten him out. I don't think he got enough AB's with the Yanks to get going, so I wouldn't make anything negative out of his time in the Bronx.

I still don't like the LaRoche trade either, but adding Wilson should keep the Braves from sliding backwards. I don't see them moving forwards any, though.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Somebody track a Braves forum and see what the reaction on the street is.

[metirish]

Edgy DC wrote: Somebody track a Braves forum and see what the reaction on the street is.

I've been reading a Braves blog on ajc.com ,reaction seems split,no surprise there...what I found even more interesting is that the blogger David O'Brien listed his top ten Braves ever and his top ten bands ever....here they are

] By Dave O'Brien | Monday, January 8, 2007, 04:01 PM The Atlanta Journal-Constitution On the day of football�s national championship and the announcement of Bobby Petrino as new Falcons coach, the biggest story nonetheless, at least to me, was R.E.M.�s election into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Damn straight. And so, I�m devoting this Braves/Man in Black blog to two favorite topics: The Braves and rock �n roll. Feel free to talk pigskin if you want, but this blog, should you choose to take part, is going to require undivided attention. And this exercise is undoubtedly going to raise some arguments. It better, or you folks aren�t nearly opinionated enough. Here�s what we�re going to do. What we�ve done. Ranked the top 10 Atlanta Braves players � repeat, ATLANTA Braves � and top 10 rock bands of the past 25 years (bands are eligible for the Hall 25 years after their first record, and R.E.M.�s going in on the first ballot). Keep in mind, this eliminates some great Braves who played all or most of their career with the Milwaukee Braves or with other teams, and eliminates a lot of rock bands who were already big before 1982, bands such as The Clash, Allman Brothers, X, Ramones, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Pretenders, Talking Heads, Van Halen, Kiss � or Led Zep and the Stones, obviously. And also Husker Du, one of my personal faves. (LATE EDITED CHANGE TO MY LIST: I dropped U2 after determining they were sufficiently big following pre-1982 releases of Boy and October albums, though they obviously got far bigger in the past 25 years. That�s why there�s going to be confusion when you read some posts before the change was made. Anyway, back to our blog, as filed earlier today.) It also eliminates Bon Jovi and Journey, because I said GOOD bands, not cheesy bands that sold a lot of albums. Oh, that ought to get a couple responses right there. And for these purposes, we�ll consider Elvis Costello, Prince and others as solo artists, though they released plenty of sensational CDs in this era with bands (the Attractions, the Revolution). Now, this is just my list, and I�m certain that very few of you are probably going to agree with all or most of my bands. That�s fine. This is about personal tastes, and, personally, I don�t care how many albums a band sells. Also, a few of my very favorite bands, like Drive-By Truckers, Black Keys and Calexico, haven�t been around quite long enough or made quite a big enough impact to make my list, not like these 10 have. I cheated on Wilco and combined them with the band they stemmed from, Uncle Tupelo. I though of including Public Enemy, but in the end I decided we needed to confine this to rock bands or it just gets unwieldy. Though I could argue Public Enemy rocked harder than some bands on my list, and have had a bigger impact. Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Social Distortion, Pavement, Blur, Morphine, Oasis, Metallica, Flaming Lips, Red Hot Chili Peppers � a lot of great bands got left off my list. But I wanted to keep it to 10 to make it tougher to pick. Now, as for the Braves list, I think we�ll probably agree on most of the guys on the list, but the hard part of that was ranking them. Unlike the bands, we�re ranking the players by their greatness, their impact while with the Braves. To me, guys like Andres Galarraga, Terry Pendleton, Denny Neagle, Mark Wohlers and � OK, I�ll say it � John Rocker weren�t with the team long enough to make this list, though they may have had a few spectacular seasons in Atlanta. And I admit, it�s splitting hairs on some of these guys. A year or two ago, I would still have had Dale Murphy ahead of Chipper, but as Hoss has passed Murph in a few major club records, I�ve gotta go with Chipper. Also, though some may say it�s obvious because Niekro�s in the Hall of Fame, I really debated whether to rank him ahead of Glavine. If you look at their career numbers with Atlanta, it�d be easy to go with Glavine. And how to rank, say, Andruw compared to Chipper and Smoltz? Javy Lopez was the toughest call, and he got the nod from me only because he was around twice as long as Terry Pendleton and a bit longer than Rafael Furcal. I wouldn�t argue strongly with anyone who chose two ahead of Javy, though. It�s highly subjective and I might have a different opinion by the end of the season. Or the week. Who knows? But it�s fun, I think you�ll agree, to go through and try to rank them. Get out your reference books, or get ready to go back and forth to Baseball Reference or your favorite website for comparisons. And if you want to skip either list, feel free. No worries. Top 10 Atlanta Braves (in order) 1) Hank Aaron 2) Greg Maddux 3) Phil Niekro 4) Tom Glavine 5) Chipper Jones 6) Dale Murphy 7) Andruw Jones 8) John Smoltz 9) David Justice 10) Javy Lopez Top 10 Bands of 25 years (no particular order) Jane�s Addiction The Replacements The Waterboys The Pogues The Smiths R.E.M. Nirvana Guns & Roses Pixies Wilco/Uncle Tupelo

[Guest Edgy DC]

]I dropped U2 after determining they were sufficiently big following pre-1982 releases of Boy and October albums, though they obviously got far bigger in the past 25 years. That�s why there�s going to be confusion when you read some posts before the change was made. Anyway, back to our blog, as filed earlier today.)

Hank Aaron was pretty big before coming to Atlanta also.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bottom ten Braves lesser Braves that still stick in my craw:

10) Zane Smith
9) Glenn Hubbard
8) Otis Nixon
7) Jeff Blauser
6) Kent Mercker
5) Dion James and Deion Sanders, who will be inextricably conflated in my memory before I turn 50 anyhow
4) Mark Lemke
3) John Thomson and his stupid flag
2) Keith Lockhart
1) Keith Lockhart

[metirish]

Brian Jordan would make my list of Braves that stick in my craw(love that word)

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

You really should have your craw cleaned out twice a year.

[Frayed Knot]

David Wells and the Pads agree to one more go 'round.


And the Cubs throw major bucks - and a Major League contract - at last year's 5th round draftee Jeff Samardzija (bless you) in order to entice him out of entering the NFL draft. Picked by many to be a 1st round pick as a wide receiver, the Notre Dame RHP will take his 90+ heater to Chicago instead.
I always get a kick out of it when this kind of thing happens -- even if only to hear the football commentators (ie. most of the national media) talk about either what a mistake he's making, or about how he's taking the "easy way out" by choosing not to get hit all the time. In their world, no one who can go to the NFL should ever opt not to.

[Guest Edgy DC]

In my world, no one who can get his contract guaranteed should ever opt not to.

[Frayed Knot]

What the crying commentators [u:f66a6d20f1]should[/u:f66a6d20f1] say, of course, is that if the NFL doesn't want to let these players get away they ought to start offereing contracts with larger guarantees and more control over their future.
I'm not going to hold my breath until that happens however. The football media LOVES the fact that the league holds the hammer over the players and that their union docilely accepts it..

[Guest Edgy DC]

In my world, no one who can

a) get a chance to avoid the NFL's salary cap late in his career, but

early in his career use the threat of the NFL to avoid the salary constriction of what remains of MLB's reserve clause

should ever opt not to.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Oh, and a strong argument here for the non-dying-ness of baseball.

[nymr83]

baseball is healthier than ever, but whats that got to do with this thread?

[Guest Edgy DC]

An athlete with the opportunity to choose between two major sports chose MLB, and that speaks well of baseball.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: An athlete with the opportunity to choose between two major sports chose MLB, and that speaks well of baseball.

It would be the same if he choose a chance to play on the PGA as opposed to the NFL

Or even if a Major Indoor Lacrosse League (if it still exists) franchise offered him the same contract that the Cubs put on the table

Same difference, you can't chalk it up to the health of the sport he chose, though he clearly was thinking about his own health! =

[nymr83]

Edgy DC wrote: An athlete with the opportunity to choose between two major sports chose MLB, and that speaks well of baseball.

I was going to make a different argument, an athlete chooses baseball because the money is generally gauranteed as of where in football it isn't.
It could certainly be seen as an indication of the good health of baseball that the owners see no problem with handing out gauranteed money even over 7 year deals and the fact that franchises like the Royals can give 5 year 55 million dollar deals to mediocre (at best) pitchers....it might not have been a good baseball decision but it says alot for the health of the sport that a deal like that can be handed out.

[Guest Edgy DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Edgy DC"]An athlete with the opportunity to choose between two major sports chose MLB, and that speaks well of baseball. It would be the same if he choose a chance to play on the PGA as opposed to the NFL

What would be the same?

SteveJRogers wrote: Or even if a Major Indoor Lacrosse League (if it still exists) franchise offered him the same contract that the Cubs put on the table

No Steve, you are steeped in wrongness.

SteveJRogers wrote: Same difference, you can't chalk it up to the health of the sport he chose, though he clearly was thinking about his own health! =

I didn't chalk anything up. I said it speaks well. It does.

[stevejrogers]

="Edgy DC"] SteveJRogers wrote: ="Edgy DC"]An athlete with the opportunity to choose between two major sports chose MLB, and that speaks well of baseball. ] It would be the same if he choose a chance to play on the PGA as opposed to the NFL What would be the same? The decision to go with something that would be A) just as lucrative (if he had the same talent as a collegite golfer as opposed to a baseball pitcher) and just as safe (and safer than baseball actually) than the NFL. More about just someone making a personal choice than speaking well of a sport. Did 1993 Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward's decision to sign with the Knicks speak well for the NBA? SteveJRogers wrote: Or even if a Major Indoor Lacrosse League (if it still exists) franchise offered him the same contract that the Cubs put on the table No Steve, you are steeped in wrongness. No, it's the SAME EXACT thing. The kid just chose one activity over another. Hell if he had the same opportunity to to join the NY Times would that speak well for newspappers? No because the print media is actually a dying entiy in today's society. Or pick any troubled Fortune 500 company.

metsmarathon Jan 21 2007 11:15 AM

the point is, partly, that those troubled entities cannot afford to give out such contracts, while baseball can.

Edgy DC Jan 21 2007 01:52 PM

]Did 1993 Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward's decision to sign with the Knicks speak well for the NBA? Of course it did. Creeps, Steve, you yourself argued that part of the deathknell for baseball can be heard in people choosing other sports. Now somebody --- an educated uncompromised individual --- chooses baseball (as a fifth round draft choice, when he looked like a first-rounder, if I understand it, for the NFL), and it's irrelevant?

SteveJRogers Jan 21 2007 02:29 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]Did 1993 Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward's decision to sign with the Knicks speak well for the NBA? Of course it did. Creeps, Steve, you yourself argued that part of the deathknell for baseball can be heard in people choosing other sports. Now somebody --- an educated uncompromised individual --- chooses baseball (as a fifth round draft choice, when he looked like a first-rounder, if I understand it, for the NFL), and it's irrelevant? That was a reference to a movement, (urban youths trending towards NBA and NFL) not a singular example. Like I said, if the kid was just as talented in lacrosse as he is in baseball and enticed by the Major Indor LAX league (or whatever pro-LAX league is out there) it doesn't speak for the health of said pro-LAX league

cooby Jan 21 2007 02:49 PM

Must...stop....reading...this thread....

dinosaur jesus Jan 21 2007 02:52 PM

One player opts for baseball. Not exactly a trend. The big advantage that football has--regardless of which sport is more popular--is that if you're drafted in the high rounds, you're usually on the team right away, rather than having to take your chances working through the minors. It's hard to compete with that.

SteveJRogers Jan 21 2007 02:56 PM

Plus, no one is coming out and saying it, but I wonder how much "reverse racism" has to do with Samardzija's decision. Granted there are white wide receivers out there, but many are put into pigeonhole type of situations or treated more of a "gutsy grinder" and generally aren't considered "first option wide outs" and he probably was told by "his people" that he had a much better chance at "superstardom" if he pursued pitching as opposed to the NFL. Though considering Sweet Lou's philosophy about pitching is the same as Dallas Baker (that was intentional) not sure if the Cub organization was the right place to go!

Edgy DC Jan 21 2007 03:52 PM

I didn't claim it's a trend. I said it, in itself, speaks well. Please take what I say for what I say. ]Like I said, if the kid was just as talented in lacrosse as he is in baseball and enticed by the Major Indor LAX league (or whatever pro-LAX league is out there) it doesn't speak for the health of said pro-LAX league. In the same sense that increased revenues and profits doesn't speak for the health of the league? Of course it does. It's not the last word, but of course it does. I have no interest in indulging the speculative argument about the player fleeing racial discrimination.

SteveJRogers Jan 21 2007 04:27 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I didn't claim it's a trend. I said it, in itself, speaks well. Please take what I say for what I say. ]Like I said, if the kid was just as talented in lacrosse as he is in baseball and enticed by the Major Indor LAX league (or whatever pro-LAX league is out there) it doesn't speak for the health of said pro-LAX league. In the same sense that increased revenues and profits doesn't speak for the health of the league? Of course it does. It's not the last word, but of course it does. I have no interest in indulging the speculative argument about the player fleeing racial discrimination. Fair enough

SteveJRogers Jan 21 2007 04:32 PM

.... Chase Utley gets a nice 7 year, 85 mil extention with the Phillies Ryan Howard's payday is fast approaching!

Yancy Street Gang Jan 21 2007 05:22 PM

Oh well. I was hoping the Mets would be able to Poach Utley in a couple of years.

smg58 Jan 21 2007 06:33 PM

You're going to see fewer and fewer high-profile young guys hit the open market. The benefits generally outweigh the risks for both sides.

DocTee Jan 21 2007 06:35 PM

Can this be true? If so, the Cubs are the most generous team in sports. http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070121&content_id=1783591&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb Among the items being given away on the 2007 promotions calendar are iPod nanos, Lou Piniella bobblehead dolls, Andre Dawson road jerseys, bears from the "Build-A-Bear Workshop," and Ryne Sandberg No. 23 player caps. ... The "Race to Wrigley" 5-K run will be held March 31.

dinosaur jesus Jan 21 2007 08:26 PM

That's not a Lou Piniella bobblehead. That's what his head always looks like.

cleonjones11 Jan 21 2007 11:23 PM

Wasn't Charlie Ward billed as the best QB in NY when he was a Knick? It's not my money we we spend on whoever but it will probably cost 75 bucks just to walk into this new Met ballpark The Sports/Industrial complex...no healthcare for all

iramets Jan 22 2007 08:13 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Oh well. I was hoping the Mets would be able to Poach Utley in a couple of years. Oh, they can. All that has to happen is for him to have three or four off-years in a row, and then the Mets will pick up the remainder of his high-priced, no-performance contract that they'll try to sell to the fan base as "Hey, this is CHASE UTLEY! Don't you remember how he used to kill us way back when? Well, we've got him--it's the same guy--and only 12 million per year, too! Yay on us!"

Yancy Street Gang Jan 22 2007 09:04 AM

Sounds like a plan!

Rockin' Doc Jan 22 2007 12:49 PM

Finally, we've been shown the plan. Quick, somebody call ambler.

smg58 Jan 22 2007 02:08 PM

iramets wrote: Oh, they can. All that has to happen is for him to have three or four off-years in a row, Well hey, if that happens the Phillies don't come within ten games of us the rest of the decade! I like it already!

MFS62 Jan 23 2007 11:37 AM

From today's NY Post: Today in Venezuela, the Mets will see Victor Zambrano throw for the second time, according to agent Peter Greenberg. The Mets are one of five or six teams, according to Greenberg, who are interested in Zambrano and the pitcher - who had Tommy John surgery last May 15 - could possibly have a decision later this week.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 23 2007 11:50 AM

We need to re-sign VZ to keep the Tim Bogar Trade Chain alive. That, or root for that minor-league ctacher we received for Victor Diaz.

[metsmarathon]

the point is, partly, that those troubled entities cannot afford to give out such contracts, while baseball can.

[Guest Edgy DC]

]Did 1993 Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward's decision to sign with the Knicks speak well for the NBA?

Of course it did.

Creeps, Steve, you yourself argued that part of the deathknell for baseball can be heard in people choosing other sports. Now somebody --- an educated uncompromised individual --- chooses baseball (as a fifth round draft choice, when he looked like a first-rounder, if I understand it, for the NFL), and it's irrelevant?

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: ]Did 1993 Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward's decision to sign with the Knicks speak well for the NBA? Of course it did. Creeps, Steve, you yourself argued that part of the deathknell for baseball can be heard in people choosing other sports. Now somebody --- an educated uncompromised individual --- chooses baseball (as a fifth round draft choice, when he looked like a first-rounder, if I understand it, for the NFL), and it's irrelevant?

That was a reference to a movement, (urban youths trending towards NBA and NFL) not a singular example.

Like I said, if the kid was just as talented in lacrosse as he is in baseball and enticed by the Major Indor LAX league (or whatever pro-LAX league is out there) it doesn't speak for the health of said pro-LAX league

[Guest cooby]

Must...stop....reading...this thread....

[dinosaur jesus]

One player opts for baseball. Not exactly a trend. The big advantage that football has--regardless of which sport is more popular--is that if you're drafted in the high rounds, you're usually on the team right away, rather than having to take your chances working through the minors. It's hard to compete with that.

[stevejrogers]

Plus, no one is coming out and saying it, but I wonder how much "reverse racism" has to do with Samardzija's decision.

Granted there are white wide receivers out there, but many are put into pigeonhole type of situations or treated more of a "gutsy grinder" and generally aren't considered "first option wide outs" and he probably was told by "his people" that he had a much better chance at "superstardom" if he pursued pitching as opposed to the NFL.

Though considering Sweet Lou's philosophy about pitching is the same as Dallas Baker (that was intentional) not sure if the Cub organization was the right place to go!

[Guest Edgy DC]

I didn't claim it's a trend. I said it, in itself, speaks well. Please take what I say for what I say.

]Like I said, if the kid was just as talented in lacrosse as he is in baseball and enticed by the Major Indor LAX league (or whatever pro-LAX league is out there) it doesn't speak for the health of said pro-LAX league.

In the same sense that increased revenues and profits doesn't speak for the health of the league? Of course it does. It's not the last word, but of course it does.

I have no interest in indulging the speculative argument about the player fleeing racial discrimination.