Being Jerry Koosman

[Willets Point]

And not being Yancy Street Gang.

(More later, I've got to be elsewhere right now).

[Benjamin Grimm]

Hey, you pulled ahead of me!

I guess that's what happens when I stay away for two weeks.

[Willets Point]

We'll be Koosmen together soon.

So Jerry Koosman is another Met before my time. I always thought he was underappreciated standing in the shadow of Seaver, so its good he's ranked the #3 Met of all time to give him some props.

I find it interesting that he finished second in Cy Young Award voting in 1976 to Randy Jones, mainly because I have no frickin' clue who Randy Jones is (especially since he eventually became a Met too).


Of course the cool trivia is that Koosman was on the mound for the final out of the 1969 World Series. He was trade for Jesse Orosco who was on the mound for the final out of the 1986 World Series. I think there's some more interesting trivia in the trade chain too, but that's Dickshot's territory.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I always liked Jerry Koosman. And I'm glad he's hanging in there in the UMDB Top Twenty lookups. I think he's the best of the most likely to be forgotten Mets.

I remember 1976, and Randy Jones was one of the most untouchable pitchers in baseball that year. There was no chance that anyone but him would win the Cy Young award.

I don't think Jerry belongs in Cooperstown, but he deserved more consideration than he got. I don't think Don Sutton was all that better than Koosman, and he's in. (Although he shouldn't be.)

[dinosaur jesus]

I remember 1976 too, and Jerry got screwed. He came on strong in the last half of the season, but I think everyone had already assumed that Jones would get the award. I think another consideration was that Jones had had a strong season the year before but had lost out to Seaver (who of course deserved it).

[Elster88]

Sup. Haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm not saying he's a Hall of Famer either, but I imagine that showing how Seaver and Koosman match up against their peers in a run-support neutral envirnoment would blow your mind, sweep it up, stuff it back into your head, and then blow it again.

[Guest Edgy DC]

As it is, a quick addition shows that Seaver and Koosman won at least 307 games together --- probably one to three more, depending on how Seaver did during Koos's brief time on the roster in 1967. That probably stacks up well with any post-war pairing, offense or no offense.

Koosman had won five games at the point of Seaver's departure on June 15, 1977 (and Kingman's also, it should be said), but notched only three more wins during the remaining three and a half months of the season, and three total during his disastrous 1978 campaign.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

My Mom's favorite Met. What else needs to be said?

[seawolf17]

[young seawolf] An old man who pitches for the Twins and White Sox and Phillies. Apparently he was a Met once. [/young seawolf]

[Frayed Knot]

Kooz defintinely suffered from Seaver-shadow a couple of times.

He lost the '68 ROY one year after Seaver won it. Now losing to Johnny Bench is no disgrace but I always wondered how many writers said; 'aw, we gave it to a Met pitcher last year'

In '75, Randy Jones - who had 3 speeds: slow, slower, slowest - lost the CY to Seaver when some thought that the difference in their twos reps played a part. So then in '76, Jones gets out to a 16-1 (or something like that) start *by the All-Star Break* and is the talk of baseball as visions of a 30-game winner dance through folks' heads. He then had a very mediocre 2nd half as Koosman "caught up" and maybe surpassed him but the die was already cast and the vote wasn't particularly close. And again, it seemed a bit like; Jones loses out to Seaver so let's not out-Met him again this year

[Benjamin Grimm]

Does anyone know how many HOF votes Jerry got?

I'd be curious to see a comparison of his and Don Sutton's stats and their Hall of Fame votes.

[A Boy Named Seo]

It looks like Koosman only got 4 votes (0.90%) in 1991 and was dropped form the ballot.

Sutton started out with 259 votes in his first eligible year, and got in with 386 votes (81.61%) in his fifth year.

[Guest Edgy DC]

1991 Total ballots cast: 443 Necessary for election: 333

Name	Votes	PCT
Rod Carew	401	90.52
Gaylord Perry	342	77.20
Fergie Jenkins	334	75.40
Rollie Fingers	291	65.69
Jim Bunning	282	63.66
Orlando Cepeda	192	43.34
Tony Oliva	160	36.12
Bill Mazeroski	142	32.05
Ron Santo	116	26.19
Harvey Kuenn	100	22.57
Jim Kaat	62	14.00
Maury Wills	61	13.77
Dick Allen	59	13.32
Ken Boyer	58	13.09
Joe Torre	41	9.26
Bobby Bonds	39	8.80
Minnie Minoso	38	8.58
Mickey Lolich	33	7.45
Luis Tiant	32	7.22
Vada Pinson	30	6.77
Thurman Munson	28	6.32
Rusty Staub	28	6.32
Curt Flood	23	5.19
Al Oliver	19	4.29
Sparky Lyle	15	3.39
Larry Bowa	11	2.48
Jerry Koosman	4	0.90
Jeff Burroughs	1	0.23
Mike Hargrove	1	0.23
Richie Hebner	1	0.23
Burt Hooton	1	0.23
Mike Jorgensen	1	0.23
John Lowenstein	1	0.23
Ellis Valentine	1	0.23
Bob Bailor	0	0.00
Al Bumbry	0	0.00
Rich Dauer	0	0.00
Oscar Gamble	0	0.00
Larry Gura	0	0.00
Art Howe	0	0.00
Bruce Kison	0	0.00
Steve Rogers	0	0.00
John Wathan	0	0.00
Pat Zachry	0	0.00
Geoff Zahn	0	0.00

[Benjamin Grimm]

No way does Sutton deserve 65 times as many votes as Koosman.

Sutton's numbers are sexier, and he has a better Hall of Fame case. But Koosman deserved more than 4 votes.

He won 324 and lost 256 with 3,574 strikeouts. Career ERA of 3.26. He pitched from 1966 through 1988.

Koosman was 222 and 209, with 2,556 strikeouts. Career ERA of 3.36. Pitched from 1967 through 1985.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Maybe, but arguing that he wouldn't get your vote, but he deserved more votes than he got, is a tough one to sustain. If you agree with the ultimate result, what matter whether he got four votes or 40?

The Hall of Fame is a Pass/Fail class.

[dinosaur jesus]

I think Koosman was as good as quite a number of Hall of Fame pitchers, and with a little better luck in the teams he played for--or just reasonable run support in 1977 and 1978--he might have been a candidate. But those are the breaks. There are a lot of guys you could say that about. I don't know if Sutton was actually a better pitcher, but 100 wins is a huge difference. It makes him an obvious Hall of Famer. And for Koosman, 13 games over .500 for his career just won't do it. So it's not that Sutton deserved 65 times more votes, it's that the dividing line clearly runs somewhere between them.

There are some other guys on that list that deserved a lot more respect than they got, like Tony Oliva.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I know. It is a bit of a conundrum.

I guess I can best explain it by saying that Hall of Fame voters have had lower standards than I have, and more of these people with lower standards should have seen that Jerry met their lower standards.

Or, in other words, it's a respect thang, yo.

[Elster88]

How do they fill out the ballot? My guess would be a player needs a certain amount of service time.

And how many years after retirment before a player is eligible?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ten years minimum service and five years after playing your last game.

Some minor exceptions are out there, but that's the drill.

[Elster88]

How many ten-and-five rules exist in baseball?

[Willets Point]

Not to sound arrogant (I mean I am great, but this is props to you all as well) but I really enjoy the discusions my "Being..." threads engender.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Only two more to go, though.

Unless you're planning on "Being Joan Payson"

[Willets Point]

When I pass Seaver I want to be this guy for a while:



And then a flying toaster.

[Guest Edgy DC]

That's a totally do-able metadesignation!

Unless somebody beats you there.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm going to post a couple of thousand alphabet posts just so I can regain my lead over Willets!

It'll be something like this:

A!

B!

C!

[Zvon]

Ive always been a big Kooz fan.
Never took him for granted.
When we had Koosman and Seaver, no matter what shape the team was in, there were two games a week worth going to.